Wiring Master Needed!!!

[txironhead]

If you don't get the starter to turn over when you jump the two large terminals, something is majorly wrong. When you bypass all of the normal safety features the bike goes through to kick in the solenoid by jumping the two large terminals, your wiring looks like this:

positive battery terminal>one large terminal on solenoid>other large terminal on solenoid>starter>engine case>ground wire>negative battery terminal.

Did you test the starter before you installed it? You can do this by taking the battery out, fastening a jumper wire from the negative terminal to the starter housing (where it bolts to the engine case is a good spot) and touching the terminal where the positive cable connects to the starter to the positive terminal. Spin=good starter. No spin=bad starter.

Sounds to me like something's not connected right or not grounded right. Here's a few things that may have been overlooked: (some are "DUH" things but check them anyway)

Battery tested good and fully charged.
Ground wire connected to negative battery terminal and ground bolt on engine case, both with CLEAN contact points.
Wire going to solenoid from battery positive, with clean contact points.
Wire going from solenoid to starter terminal, with clean contact ponts.
Starter tested.
Contact areas where starter bolts to engine clean on both starter and engine.
Battery installed correctly (positive to positive, neg to neg) (this is easier to screw up than you think)
Ground cable, starter cable and battery-to-solenoid cable checked thoroughly for corrosion, kinks, lumps under sheathing, good connectors, etc. Verify resistance (should be 0 or very, very near) from connector to connector.
Contact areas where all of the above cables connect shiny and clean.

The only other thing I can think of is that the engine is frozen, but if it were you should have at least had a spark on the solenoid. And even if the solenoid is bad, jumping it bypasses it anyway.

Don't give up!

[rustybronco]

when I touch the posts of the solenoid, I get nothing...not even a small zap...Could It be that I just got a bad solenoid????? [-o<

VERY VERY unlikely but still anything is possible, BUT by jumping across the two large terminals you have effectively taken it out of the equation. let's get the starter to spin first and then meet (if at all) each challenge presented. AGREED?
plane tickets are expensive...

[Darci]

Clutch switch?
GOT vom, dvom? if not beg borrow or buy. (I'd send you one but all I have left is one) you can fix it.... it ain't rocket science.
If it was closer i would stop by.

Remember... battery> ignition switch> kill switch> button> clutch switch> solenoid + battery> solenoid> starter + all grounds
can you connect the two large posts together (screwdriver) on the solenoid and get it to crank?

don't give up or I'll come down and kick you.
****edit****
Take A (one) jumper cable and hook it from the negative post on the battery and hook the other end to the engine case.
then jump the solenoid.

Ok, I just found a multi meter, new in package none the less...How do I use the thing? What is my first step?? I have never used a multi meter before. It's a craftsman model 82411..I have attached a picture so you can see exactly what I am using...

so, this is what I did this morning:

I cleaned all connectors and contacts with a knife to get them all nice and shiny, looking like new (including the engine ground)

>Verified that the battery was charged (the battery tender said good)

>I used a screwdriver to jump the solenoid, got nothing

>Hooked up the jumper cable from negative battery terminal to the engine case and then tried to jump the solenoid, nothing happened.

>Hooked up the battery to the starter, all the lights went out on my dash. I verified that the battery was hooked up correctly..negative to negative, positive to positive. The other negative cable to the engine and the positive to the tab sticking out on the starter...nada....except for my dash lights Does this mean that I am grounding out somewhere???

>Disconnected the solenoid, held all wires together with a pair of pliers, turned the the key to on and got nothing...not even when I pressed the start button.

So....now, I am assuming it is time to use this new, handy dandy multimeter thingy!!! \\/ What is my first step???

[Darci]

If you don't get the starter to turn over when you jump the two large terminals, something is majorly wrong. When you bypass all of the normal safety features the bike goes through to kick in the solenoid by jumping the two large terminals, your wiring looks like this:

positive battery terminal>one large terminal on solenoid>other large terminal on solenoid>starter>engine case>ground wire>negative battery terminal.

Did you test the starter before you installed it? You can do this by taking the battery out, fastening a jumper wire from the negative terminal to the starter housing (where it bolts to the engine case is a good spot) and touching the terminal where the positive cable connects to the starter to the positive terminal. Spin=good starter. No spin=bad starter. I couldnt get my jumper cable in there and I don't have thick enough guage wire to run from the battery to the engine case...However I did run jumper cables from the battery to the starter and got nothing...

Sounds to me like something's not connected right or not grounded right. Here's a few things that may have been overlooked: (some are "DUH" things but check them anyway)

Battery tested good and fully charged. Check
Ground wire connected to negative battery terminal and ground bolt on engine case, both with CLEAN contact points. Check
Wire going to solenoid from battery positive, with clean contact points.check
Wire going from solenoid to starter terminal, with clean contact ponts.
Starter tested. Check
Contact areas where starter bolts to engine clean on both starter and engine. Check
Battery installed correctly (positive to positive, neg to neg) (this is easier to screw up than you think) Check (unless the battery is mis-marked)
Ground cable, starter cable and battery-to-solenoid cable checked thoroughly for corrosion, kinks, lumps under sheathing, good connectors, etc. Check Verify resistance (should be 0 or very, very near) from connector to connector. Don't know how to do this part..
Contact areas where all of the above cables connect shiny and clean. Check

The only other thing I can think of is that the engine is frozen, but if it were you should have at least had a spark on the solenoid. And even if the solenoid is bad, jumping it bypasses it anyway. The bike was running beautifully until I ran into all these electrical issues

Don't give up!

It is time to step away from the bike and have a beer. Oh Wait, it's only 9am. Beer will have to wait...I tried reading the directions on my new handy dandy multi tester thingy but all the words started to blur together. i've seen other people use them, but I have never used it myself. i am sure it is really simple, at least that is what all my electrical engineers and electricians say. But they also could have probably gotten this thing running and good by now as well!!! :-D hee hee hee hee

[Darci]

VERY VERY unlikely but still anything is possible, BUT by jumping across the two large terminals you have effectively taken it out of the equation. let's get the starter to spin first and then meet (if at all) each challenge presented. AGREED? AGREED!! :-D RIGHT NOW, I AM LEANING TOWARDS A BAD STARTER OR A BAD GROUND...It's got to be one of the two...that's all I can think of...
plane tickets are expensive...

Maybe I will win the Lottery tonight!!!

[Darci]

Ok, I figured out the multimeter. I have 0 ohms at the battery and solenoid. I touched the ground to the motor and the positive to the starter tab thing and got 0 ohms as well. Now, when I change it over to DC I get current at everything but the starter.

Question: When I use the multimeter and touch the black to the motor and the red to the starter, should I get a DC reading with the key on? No, correct? There shouldn't be any current flowing until I hit the push button, correct?

Now: Let's get back to elementary basics. Looking at the solenoid straight on. You have two posts on the top. One goes to the positive side of the battery, the other goes down to the starter. Then, you have a tab with a prong sticking up. This prong connects to a yellow/green wire.

Using a Test Light: With the key on, the light lights up when I touch the + battery terminal, the solenoid post that attaches to the + side of the battery. When I press the starter button and touch the tab that connects the yellow/green wire, the light will light up. I also get DC and 0 OHM reading repeating the light tester steps on these three connections.

HOWEVER: when I try the light tester on the solenoid ppst with the wire going to the starter, I get no light and no DC reading, even when I press the starter button. BUT: when I test for OHM on the starter tab, I get a 0 OHM reading and no DC current, even with the key on and the starter button pressed.

ALSO: When i take a wire and touch it from the solenoid post that is connected to the battery to the solenoid prong that has the yellow/green wire, the solenoid makes a fast clicking sound.


FINALLY: I just came in from outside. I put a load on the battery and it tested out fine. I hooked up my car to the positive and negative cables, bypassing the battery. Turned on the ignition, pressed the button and got clicking noises from the solenoid. Hooked up the positive cables to the positive solenoid post (where the wire goes to the battery) got a hell of a lot of spark, but still, no start. hooked the ground jumper cable to a good ground on the bike and the positive jumper cable to the starter and got nothing. This is all while still hooked up to my car battery. No, the car wasn't on.

SOOOOO: I took out all the spark plugs and checked for oil and gas (to see if it was hydraulicking) and nope, everything looked. good. I then put it in 2nd gear and tried to turn the rear wheel and nothing. Wheel wouldn't budge.

WHICH LEADS ME TO THE CONCLUSION that i either have a frozen motor or a bad starter clutch.

Know anyone who wants a good parts bike, real cheap??? make me an offer and come pick it up!!!

[rustybronco]

Ok, I figured out the multimeter. I have 0 ohms at the battery and solenoid. I touched the ground to the motor and the positive to the starter tab thing and got 0 ohms as well. Now, when I change it over to DC I get current at everything but the starter.

Question: When I use the multimeter and touch the black to the motor and the red to the starter, should I get a DC reading with the key on? No, correct? There shouldn't be any current flowing until I hit the push button, correct?

Now: Let's get back to elementary basics. Looking at the solenoid straight on. You have two posts on the top. One goes to the positive side of the battery, the other goes down to the starter. Then, you have a tab with a prong sticking up. This prong connects to a yellow/green wire.

Using a Test Light: With the key on, the light lights up when I touch the + battery terminal, the solenoid post that attaches to the + side of the battery. When I press the starter button and touch the tab that connects the yellow/green wire, the light will light up. I also get DC and 0 OHM reading repeating the light tester steps on these three connections.

HOWEVER: when I try the light tester on the solenoid ppst with the wire going to the starter, I get no light and no DC reading, even when I press the starter button. BUT: when I test for OHM on the starter tab, I get a 0 OHM reading and no DC current, even with the key on and the starter button pressed.

ALSO: When i take a wire and touch it from the solenoid post that is connected to the battery to the solenoid prong that has the yellow/green wire, the solenoid makes a fast clicking sound.


FINALLY: I just came in from outside. I put a load on the battery and it tested out fine. I hooked up my car to the positive and negative cables, bypassing the battery. Turned on the ignition, pressed the button and got clicking noises from the solenoid. Hooked up the positive cables to the positive solenoid post (where the wire goes to the battery) got a hell of a lot of spark, but still, no start. hooked the ground jumper cable to a good ground on the bike and the positive jumper cable to the starter and got nothing. This is all while still hooked up to my car battery. No, the car wasn't on.

SOOOOO: I took out all the spark plugs and checked for oil and gas (to see if it was hydraulicking) and nope, everything looked. good. I then put it in 2nd gear and tried to turn the rear wheel and nothing. Wheel wouldn't budge.

WHICH LEADS ME TO THE CONCLUSION that i either have a frozen motor or a bad starter clutch.

Know anyone who wants a good parts bike, real cheap??? make me an offer and come pick it up!!!

Darci I just got home... sorry to hear it!

[bonanzadave]

You wont be able to hand turn the wheel in gear.

Omit if you already tried this...

Have you tried to push start it ? Get to the top of a hill or find an ambitious friend. Key & Choke on. Kill switch off. 2nd gear clutch in. Start down the hill and let the clutch out. Anything ?

[txironhead]

Take the starter off of the bike and test it by hooking it up to the battery. From what you've posted, I can only think of two things:

1. Starter is bad. Even new, these things happen.

2. Engine is stuck. Not necessarily frozen or junk, could be something in the starting system broke and wedged itself to the point it's jamming the engine. This is entirely possible, my starter clutch was broken into three pieces. Only way to verify is to take the stator (not starter) cover off and visually inspect the idler gear and starter clutch. While the cover is off, you can take a breaker bar and socket and try to manually turn the engine over and see if anything is binding. Gently turn it a little in both directions.

BTW, a battery tender will not tell you accurately if the battery is bad. It needs to be load tested at an auto parts store.

[Darci]

You wont be able to hand turn the wheel in gear.

Omit if you already tried this...

Have you tried to push start it ? Get to the top of a hill or find an ambitious friend. Key & Choke on. Kill switch off. 2nd gear clutch in. Start down the hill and let the clutch out. Anything ?

Hi Bonanzadave,

Unfortunately, no hills nearby nor anyway to get the bike to one!!!

[Darci]

Take the starter off of the bike and test it by hooking it up to the battery. From what you've posted, I can only think of two things:

1. Starter is bad. Even new, these things happen.

2. Engine is stuck. Not necessarily frozen or junk, could be something in the starting system broke and wedged itself to the point it's jamming the engine. This is entirely possible, my starter clutch was broken into three pieces. Only way to verify is to take the stator (not starter) cover off and visually inspect the idler gear and starter clutch. While the cover is off, you can take a breaker bar and socket and try to manually turn the engine over and see if anything is binding. Gently turn it a little in both directions.

BTW, a battery tender will not tell you accurately if the battery is bad. It needs to be load tested at an auto parts store.

Ok, I am on my way outside to remove the starter...The battery is also out of the bike right now. So, if I take the starter out and directly to the battery (also out of the bike) Where do I hook the ground part of the jumper cable? I am assuming to where the starter mounts to the engine? ~or~ put the battery back in the bike, hook it up to everything, then hook up the jumper cables to the starter and then turn on the ignition??

These may seem like really elementary questions, but My brain is really fried right now...more so out of frustration!!!

[txironhead]

I am assuming to where the starter mounts to the engine?

Correct. The starter should spin freely. I recommend putting on a workbench or something, these are really high-torque motors and can easily jump out of your hand. Try to clamp it in place or wedge it in between two fairly heavy objects. Listen to see if the starter makes a grinding noise while spinning. If it does, or doesn't spin at all, it's bad. If it just sits there and hums, disconnect the wire immediately as the wire will get really hot.

[Darci]

Correct. The starter should spin freely. I recommend putting on a workbench or something, these are really high-torque motors and can easily jump out of your hand. Try to clamp it in place or wedge it in between two fairly heavy objects. Listen to see if the starter makes a grinding noise while spinning. If it does, or doesn't spin at all, it's bad. If it just sits there and hums, disconnect the wire immediately as the wire will get really hot.

Good...Just wanted to make sure!!!

[Darci]

I just got back inside...

I have good news!!! \\/i pulled the stator cover off and was able to turn the engine without any issue. (I pulled out the spark plugs just so I wouldn't build up all the compression) Yeah, the motor isn't frozen. There were not any broken gears or anything like that. Everything looked good. I had taken out the starter so that i could hook it up to the battery but it started pouring...never put a starter back in a bike and tightened up a cover so fast!!! As soon as it stops raining, I will try the starter..

Hopefully, [-o< that's all it is, a defective starter!!

[Pearson]

C'mon Darci. I'm rootin for ya!:-D:-D Shoot. I just know you're closer than all hell. Don't give up on 'er.