Ground Loops

[mottyl]

"As an example , say there is a 0.1 ohm of resistance in the fuse box. If the R/R output supplies both the Load current(10A) and the charge current (2A) then there will be a 1.2V drop below the regulation voltage at the battery"

I actually experienced a fuse box like that. I had a 1 volt drop across it. Luckily a good cleaning dropped it into the millvolt range.

Chris

For what it's worth I agree with parts of both your statements.

[duaneage]

There are documented reports the stator develops 280 watts maximum output, that might be taken as 20 amps but it's not an apples to apples comparison. The 15 amp main fuse is a good indicator of maximum output although continuously I would not go over 12 amps. I've seen 8 amps total draw on my 650 with the lights on, brake light on and the turn signal going. There were spikes when the blinker came on. Generally you have about 3amps to play with, a little more if you go LED for the dash lights, rear brake bulb and turn signals. The coils take the lion's share followed by the headlight. The brake light is a bit thirsty too.

Goldwings these bikes aint. But you can run a pair of heated gloves or a GPS easy enough.

[posplayr]

Just so happens I have a perfect test case

I really do have a life outside of GS charging but this really Pi$$ed me off.

My ED has everything new including harness, left and right hand controls , ignition switch , Electro sport R/R and a 1 year old stator.

I acid dipped the fuse box ; it had no crimps to solder just slide fit tabs.

My bike is not charging. It idled at 12.8V and when I reved it the voltage dropped to 12.2V. Crap Crap triple crap .

So after alot of screwing around, with the Electrosport getting hot and the connections from the R/R hot I realized that there was a bad crimp in the R/R + going to the harness.

Changed that one thing (soldered the crimps) and charges like it should. QED end of proof. This thread is simply serving to prove the theory.

Pos

[duaneage]

Robu swapped out the Honda RR I sold him a year and a half ago when he had exactly the same problem. I tested his unit after I put connectors back on (he had soldered or used other connectors on it on his bike) and it worked perfectly.

This is why I send new connectors for the stator wires and red lead with every RR and recommend they be replaced as well. The best RR in the world is dead without a good connection to the rest of the world.

[Nessism]

I used to solder wires where ever possible but was recently told by an engineer friend that crimped connectors are more reliable. No flux acid involved and the heat from the solder tends to make the wires brittle. Makes sense to me.

[mottyl]

"I really do have a life outside of GS charging but this really Pi$$ed me off."

Glad you're bike is working. You dug out the calculator and went over the whole system to try and find the problem?

I'm either impressed or scared not sure what yet.

Note to self "Don't upset this guy!"

Chris

[rustybronco]

Anybody that doesn't, doesn't know and so there is no harm in having a technical discussion in a technical forum.
Jim

I would like to add a comment if I may.

some like myself may have had electrical/ electronic experience. in my case it was over 30 years ago. I took first place in radio servicing in the state (they didn't have national competitions back then). I even played around with television repair. I have designed circuits, built transmitters and even went to school to get a BSEE . but sadly my family got to be a large load and I had to put it on hold, and never finished what was started.

Having these kinds of discussions are not lost on deaf ears, even those that don't understand can and do pick up valuable information. it may even turn on a few lights to those that wondered why the voltage readings they have taken, read a negative value instead of an expected positive value, upon checking the wiring to find an answer to their problems.

Jim, I know it takes away your time to do things like this, but I ask you to keep it up.

some of us enjoy re-learning what we have forgotten...

[duaneage]

I used to solder wires where ever possible but was recently told by an engineer friend that crimped connectors are more reliable. No flux acid involved and the heat from the solder tends to make the wires brittle. Makes sense to me.

It's true. The pressure in a properly crimped connection is incredible. The wire forms into the connector. Soldering after crimping is acceptable as long as you don't use acid flux. Rosin flux is the standard these days. I use 63/37 audio grade solder.Also use a low wattage iron, around 25 watts or so.
Soldering does have the advantage of sealing out moisture but without a good mechanical joint it is prone to breakage. When I extend the wires on a Honda RR I wrap them tightly together to form a strong joint. The two wires won't pull apart even before soldering. After soldering I seal with heatshrink and overwrap with tape. So far there have been no reported problems with the connections. The main advantage to connectors is you have access to the device easily without having to resolder again and again.

I used wire wrap on telecom gear years ago. There are wire wrapped connections in use today that were done 60 years ago.

[reddirtrider]

I used to solder wires where ever possible but was recently told by an engineer friend that crimped connectors are more reliable. No flux acid involved and the heat from the solder tends to make the wires brittle. Makes sense to me.

The solder makes the wire inflexible and prone to breaking at the joint. Yes, crimping is better, talk to any defense avionics technician.

If you really want to get into this topic check out what methods of wire stripping are acceptable. They have manuals on this stuff.

[reddirtrider]

I guess I'm confused by the term 'sneak paths' here in reference grounding schemes.

When engineers speak of sneak paths it's typically of redunant paths that interfere with the normal operation of a system. For instance an alternate path for power to a radio that bypasses the fuse if there is a component failure in another system.

I've gotta be truthful here though, I haven't read this entire thread. I deal with this stuff during the day and have a very short attention span during the evening.

OK, back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[mottyl]

"When engineers speak of sneak paths it's typically of redundant paths that interfere with the normal operation of a system. For instance an alternate path for power to a radio that bypasses the fuse if there is a component failure in another system."

plus 1

I"ve heard that phrase before in that context.

Chris

[Sandy]

It's true. The pressure in a properly crimped connection is incredible. The wire forms into the connector. Soldering after crimping is acceptable as long as you don't use acid flux. Rosin flux is the standard these days. I use 63/37 audio grade solder.Also use a low wattage iron, around 25 watts or so.
Soldering does have the advantage of sealing out moisture but without a good mechanical joint it is prone to breakage. When I extend the wires on a Honda RR I wrap them tightly together to form a strong joint. The two wires won't pull apart even before soldering. After soldering I seal with heatshrink and overwrap with tape. So far there have been no reported problems with the connections. The main advantage to connectors is you have access to the device easily without having to resolder again and again.

I used wire wrap on telecom gear years ago. There are wire wrapped connections in use today that were done 60 years ago.

LOL. When first read the title I thought I was going see a really great picture of Jim doing huge smoking donuts on his streetfighter!!!

Same here. If you're only going to use one method use crimping, you need that mechanical bond. Simply soldering connectors without first crimping could lead to the wire popping out if the wire gets too hot. I also wrap the wire or connector with whatever is necessary for the application. To duplicate something like the factory bullet connector covers I first put a small piece of shrink tube on the connector at the wire joint to secure the wire then cover that with a larger piece of clear that will more than cover both connectors and then only shrink one end. I also somewhat secure it to something nearby such a frame strut or other wiring, don't secure too tightly or you'll have the connections breaking.

[posplayr]

Connections

The solder makes the wire inflexible and prone to breaking at the joint. Yes, crimping is better, talk to any defense avionics technician.

If you really want to get into this topic check out what methods of wire stripping are acceptable. They have manuals on this stuff.

Yes it is generally accepted that crimping is more reliable that a solder joint. The primary reasons are:

1.) Crimping in this context means using a $500 crimper, and it not the one you get at autozone.

2.) Solder where the solder wicks way up the wire will make the wire stiff and prone to breakage under vibration. (Don't do that).

3.) A solder joint when it gets hot will melt the solder and without other mechanical restraint fall out.

However, if you do the following I prefer a crimp and solder approach for home motor applications.

a.) clean the wire and if it is old soak in some acid metal prep.

b.) crimp the end of terminal to the wire

c.) If you can see some of the metal of the connector and have a find soldering iron flow some solder into the crimp to securely join it and keep out corrosion.

d.) Put dielectric grease on the spade/block connectors/contacts.

and for belt and braces block connectors:

e.) strap a zip tied lengthwise around the mail and female connectors (from wire end to wire end)and then shrink wrap (using 1" or larger from Harbor freight; it is pretty inexpensive ) the entire block pair.

[posplayr]

Sandy

LOL. When first read the title I thought I was going see a really great picture of Jim doing huge smoking donuts on his street fighter!!!

.

Sounds like that would be fun.

Gotta get the ED running again for the Escondido trip. Are u going to the Mt Shasta event?

Jim

[posplayr]

Sneak path

I guess I'm confused by the term 'sneak paths' here in reference grounding schemes.

When engineers speak of sneak paths it's typically of redunant paths that interfere with the normal operation of a system. For instance an alternate path for power to a radio that bypasses the fuse if there is a component failure in another system.

I've gotta be truthful here though, I haven't read this entire thread. I deal with this stuff during the day and have a very short attention span during the evening.

OK, back to your regularly scheduled programming.

The sneak path is the ground path between the motor and the frame.

All loads have to terminate at the R/R (-) to return to the stator.

So in this context the only sneak path would be if the R/R (-) were not well frame grounded. Then the load current in the frame, would have to return through motor mounts then through the ground strap and then from the negative side of the battery to the R/R (-) and finally back to the stator.

The primary path should/would be any frame grounded load simply return to the same R/R (-) directly via a solid frame ground at the R/R (-).

Pos