More electrical problems (starter relay wiring?)

[doctorgonzo]

Hmm, I translated Docgonzo's input as to say..." a good way to ground the battery box thoroughly is by grounding it to the main engine ground, and then you're much safer to be grounding off of the battery box itself."...?

That is what I was saying. My battery box has one mounting bolt (one of the two on the side near the tank) with like 5 wires going to it. All the ground wires for the starter relay, R/R unit, etc... AND one that runs to the main ground at the back of the engine, se effectively I have everything grounded to that one main ground at the back of the engine. My reasoning is, this is a nice unpainted good ground spot (the bolt at the rear of the engine), and now I only have two potential failure points, the point where they all meet at the battery box bolt, and the ground to the engine.

[1982SZ]

Wiki is not really a credible source for info. in that anyone can go into it and make edits. It's a negligible electronic source of "Cliff Notes", but changes everyday that someone wanders in and edits the info.. The Pirsig book on "Zen and the Art..." developed a sort of cult following as it's lessons are applicable in every corner of life. However, they are particularly applicable and easily examplified within motorcycle maintenance, and the directions communications therein. It is a book about moving beyond Ego to find a higher Quality standard.

The book came about from the Author's experiences writing and editing Tech. manuals for products; he found that Tech. Manuals which came with a product, for the Consumer to use as a set of "directions", were generally indecipherable to all those but the Engineers who already knew what was being described. Therefore, the Tech. Manuals were relatively unusable for the average consumer-the Quality of the manual was extremely low as nothing was communicated or taught to the intended receivers; the Consumer. Personally, I cannot understand what you are saying 95% of the time, pertaining to the electrical stuff on these bikes, as you are using language which speaks to engineers who already know what you're talking about. Nothing personal.

I have never read Pirsig, but just looked him up. I guess perhaps there is a cult like following of him and or his books. There is a more modern perception of what he describes. It relates entirely to the human brain and left side v.s .right side characteristics. (left is logical and right is creative). With only having read the brief synopsis these seem to correspond to Pirsig's These two sides correspond to rationality (left) and romanticism (right).

The more modern interpretation embraces the fact that the human brain should operate in both modes for optimum problem solving and that this can be effected not only at the individual level but also organizational (see 6 Sigma). It has been described to me that a key indicator of high IQ is how fast an individual can switch between left and right brain behavior.

I was just about to graduate high school when this book was published. Unfortunately I have too much rationality to indulge my romanticism that might be evoked by the title.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._Pirsig

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_and_the_Art_of_Motorcycle_Maintenance:_An_Inquiry_into_Values

As far as your lectrics, run a ground from the R/R (-) to the nearest frame point (rear air box mount works).

[tkent02]

I cannot understand what you are saying 95% of the time, pertaining to the electrical stuff on these bikes, as you are using language which speaks to engineers who already know what you're talking about. Nothing personal.

He has done an outstanding job of describing these systems to anyone with a very basic working knowledge of simple electrical systems.
If you don't have this knowledge, spend an hour in a library.
It's pretty easy stuff.

[1982SZ]

Oh, I see what you are getting at. Thanks for the clarifications.

He has done an outstanding job of describing these systems to anyone with a very basic working knowledge of simple electrical systems.
If you don't have this knowledge, spend an hour in a library.
It's pretty easy stuff.

[rustybronco]

Excuse me for continuing this low level drum beat.

such as these?

If I were you, I think I would raise the volume...I wish more people would take the time to read and understand them.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showpost.php?p=1116588&postcount=17

The point is that connections do degrade and so with the separation of grounds you are in a much better position to maintain your charging system performance.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=139115

The first step is to re-look at what the shunt R/R is really doing. Initially my original thought was that the R/R is shunting current to ground. We it is sort of but not how I originally thought. I was struck by this when I was reading the manual charging system description. Then it because obvious that because of the combo Rectifier and Regulator the R/R does shunt current, but there is a continual load current that it has to sink through its’s negative (black lead). Sinking current means the R/R has to absorb this current direct it back to the stator through the lower legs of the diode bridge. Well big surprise this changes the ball game as far as establishing a proper single point ground.

So what this analysis suggests is that:

1.) The R/R (-) should be SOLIDLY connected to frame ground.
This avoids current sharing between the 2A charging current returning from teh battery and the 10A load returns. By having the R/R grounded the voltage sensetivity to resistance between the R/R (-) and the Battery (-) is 1/6 (i.e. 2A v.s. 12A)

2.) The battery should NOT be connected to frame ground.
This causes current sharing as described above in 1.)

3.) Other than the starter/solenoid connections (pos and neg), the battery + should only connect to the positive side of the R/R and the battery negative should ONLY connect to the negative side of the R/R.
minimizing the current between the battery and the R/R on both (+) and (-) side reduces teh errors described in 1.)

[posplayr]

He has done an outstanding job of describing these systems to anyone with a very basic working knowledge of simple electrical systems.
If you don't have this knowledge, spend an hour in a library.
It's pretty easy stuff.

Thanks for the endorsement. In high school I was considered a "jock" "gear head". I flunked Algebra twice (9th grade and my senior year). When I took a Military aptitude test that they used to give annually in HS in CA at least. I scored high. My guidance counselor said I looked to be suited to be an engineer and in particular an electrical engineer. At the time my first thought sitting in her office was "engineer" ? "What run a train"?

Well to not make this not too long, I did enroll in college but with my "gear head" background thought I would be a mechanical engineer because I did not know what that aptitude test saw, because I did not know squat about electricity.

In engineering curriculums 80-90% of all of the first 2 years are the same independent of your specific major (electrical, chemical, mechanical....etc). So I'm sitting in a 1st semester of my second year of physics class and the professor gives the lecture on basic electricity ; essentially the class scope was V=IR.

After class I though, wow that was not so hard; I'll just change my major to "Electrical Engineering". And I did. . That was about spring of 1977.

[tkent02]

Thanks for the endorsement. In high school I was considered a "jock" "gear head". I flunked Algebra twice (9th grade and my senior year). When I took a Military aptitude test that they used to give annually in HS in CA at least. I scored high. My guidance counselor said I looked to be suited to be an engineer and in particular an electrical engineer. At the time my first thought sitting in her office was "engineer" ? "What run a train"?

Well to not make this not too long, I did enroll in college but with my "gear head" background thought I would be a mechanical engineer because I did not know what that aptitude test saw, because I did not know squat about electricity.

In engineering curriculums 80-90% of all of the first 2 years are the same independent of your specific major (electrical, chemical, mechanical....etc). So I'm sitting in a 1st semester of my second year of physics class and the professor gives the lecture on basic electricity ; essentially the class scope was V=IR.

After class I though, wow that was not so hard; I'll just change my major to "Electrical Engineering". And I did. . That was about spring of 1977.

I think one of the biggest failings in public schools is the lack of any electrical training, I spent an entire quarter in high school getting to an extremely basic knowledge, the Navy Basic Electricity school was way past that point by lunch time on the first day. The high school class was an elective, only offered one period, with no advanced classes available at all. Only a very few geek types even signed up.

It ought to be started in Kindergarten.

[posplayr]

Wiki is not really a credible source for info. in that anyone can go into it and make edits. It's a negligible electronic source of "Cliff Notes", but changes everyday that someone wanders in and edits the info.. The Pirsig book on "Zen and the Art..." developed a sort of cult following as it's lessons are applicable in every corner of life. However, they are particularly applicable and easily examplified within motorcycle maintenance, and the directions communications therein. It is a book about moving beyond Ego to find a higher Quality standard.

.

I take whatever I read with a grain of salt ; ironically I do not really take away anything different from your description as contrasted with the Wiki reference.

The book came about from the Author's experiences writing and editing Tech. manuals for products; he found that Tech. Manuals which came with a product, for the Consumer to use as a set of "directions", were generally indecipherable to all those but the Engineers who already knew what was being described. Therefore, the Tech. Manuals were relatively unusable for the average consumer-the Quality of the manual was extremely low as nothing was communicated or taught to the intended receivers; the Consumer.

Well this was written in the 70's probably based on manuals from the 60's. Things have certainly changes since then.

Personally, I cannot understand what you are saying 95% of the time, pertaining to the electrical stuff on these bikes, as you are using language which speaks to engineers who already know what you're talking about. Nothing personal.

If your real point here is to suggest that engineers only speak and write in terms that other engineers can understand I think I would have to disagree. Engineers do speak about technology and technology is often technical. But to suggest it is all the same and just more engineer speak is a bit of an old fashioned concept. That concept is about as old as the suggestion that engineers walk around wearing tape repaired horn rim glasses (e.g. anti-social) and pen pocket protectors (pragmatic to a fault) speak in a different language oblivious and to the determent of the rest of humanity (e.g. 60's era users manuals).

The language I try to use on this website does vary somewhat, but it is generally designed to use the least sophisticated technical concepts which provide the "essential understanding" of a technical aspect of motorcycles. The concept of "essential understanding" is that should form a foundation for further study from the many available sources. To this end I avoid analogies if possible, unless they are well accepted and documented ones (like the hydraulic pressure/flow and electrical voltage/current analogy).

To use an analogy, you might think of the extent of my willingness to "spoon feed" is to go so far as to put the spoon on the table rather than a knife and perhaps to provide one bite I won't continue to feed. But I also won't use a loosely interpreted analogy that will take you no where or worse provide a fundamental misperception (i.e. cuts like a knife).

The world has become far more sophisticated in the last 50 years and that is largely because of the sophistication of the engineering discipline. You need to look no further than the internet and people the likes of Bill gates and Larry Ellison to realize that.

Pos

[1982SZ]

My statement made was not a point to make, just a fact from my perception and Pirsig's; reading your writing did nothing to assit me in understanding what was going on in the system, or how to fix it, as the vocabulary used is not in layman's terms which I understand. That is not an ..." old fashioned concept." wherein professionals forget to dumb down the pro-speak, when instructing/teaching. I did not say engineers only talk shop-talk, but you seem to as far as I'm concerned which doesn't re-fire or light my Kat!! I did not ask to be spoon fed either, but you would surely like to think so, and rather enjoy that idea?

A book was written from a point of view before I graduated from High School in 1988, therefore it is based on old ideas/theories/technologies that have no bearing on my life today? What a convenient way to dismiss people who do not endorse me. Speaking of endorsements, I will withold any monetary contributions or patronizing the sponsors herein.

On second thought, that book sucks, do not read it or take the time to possibly enjoy it. That's the end of our sharing in this forum, from this computer. Good Day.

I take whatever I read with a grain of salt ; ironically I do not really take away anything different from your description as contrasted with the Wiki reference.




Well this was written in the 70's probably based on manuals from the 60's. Things have certainly changes since then.




If your real point here is to suggest that engineers only speak and write in terms that other engineers can understand I think I would have to disagree. Engineers do speak about technology and technology is often technical. But to suggest it is all the same and just more engineer speak is a bit of an old fashioned concept. Pos

[850 Combat]

you da man, steve!

that's all it was - a missing ground wire from the starter relay housing

interestingly, the starter relay worked fine for a while without the ground wire

Suzuki didn't think it needed one.

[posplayr]

Suzuki didn't think it needed one.

Well that is correct, however the operative word is "think" and that they DID NOT do. The engineers that designed the R/R were well aware of the issues of shunt regulation(probably Nippon subcontractors) ; it is the Suzuki engineers that designed the harness that were asleep in the "sparks and magic" class. That point seems quite clear from the looking at the general design and model to model and year to year variation in the harness design.

V=IR applies to Suzuki's as well as all electronics.

[tkent02]

I will withold any monetary contributions or patronizing the sponsors herein.

On second thought, that book sucks, do not read it or take the time to possibly enjoy it. That's the end of our sharing in this forum, from this computer. Good Day.

Wow, he didn't last long.
Usually they hold out a little longer before the dramatic exit.

[doctorgonzo]

My electrical and electronics knowledge stops after a basic circuit and the concept of resistence. I missed it somewhere along the way. This coming from a senior software engineer who plays with millions of dollars of eletronis every day.

[tejasmud]

Hey, there are book forums out there.

But, he's right, book probably sucked, nothing to do with motorcycles.

All the language used in this thread, English of course, pertaining to electronics have definitions. Don't know them, look them up.

Left brain told me to write that.

Anyways,

I have just spent the last two weeks, 1-2 hours each day, going through a wiring harness, un-doing black/blue/yellow tape, replacing wires if needed, all new connectors, solder, dialetric grease, shrink tube, multimeter, 12v power source.

Some tosted stuff was observed from the original wiring, but....

Not too bad really. A Suzuki harness is pretty simple.

Now....

Don't know about any "ground loops," but ya know...

The sparks and smoke went into the wires without too much hassle.

And, not a relay one.



I agree on the grounding of things if the original wiring, Black with a white tracer, is used, old, and depleated. It would not hurt to have a back up on the charging system anyways.

[posplayr]

My statement made was not a point to make, just a fact from my perception and Pirsig's; reading your writing did nothing to assit me in understanding what was going on in the system, or how to fix it, as the vocabulary used is not in layman's terms which I understand. That is not an ..." old fashioned concept." wherein professionals forget to dumb down the pro-speak, when instructing/teaching. I did not say engineers only talk shop-talk, but you seem to as far as I'm concerned which doesn't re-fire or light my Kat!! I did not ask to be spoon fed either, but you would surely like to think so, and rather enjoy that idea?

A book was written from a point of view before I graduated from High School in 1988, therefore it is based on old ideas/theories/technologies that have no bearing on my life today? What a convenient way to dismiss people who do not endorse me. Speaking of endorsements, I will withold any monetary contributions or patronizing the sponsors herein.

On second thought, that book sucks, do not read it or take the time to possibly enjoy it. That's the end of our sharing in this forum, from this computer. Good Day.

1982SZ
While you are gone from the board (even if you don't come back) You should rethink some of your means of conversation. This thread is a clear example of inappropriate OT material. In this thread, you created a situation that virtually guaranteed that at least you if not others would walk away mad.

Pirsig's Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance is clearly a multi faceted book. I won't even attempt to summarize it as I just found another book written by two other Phd's in philosophy to explain what Pirsig's book means. As I suspected there is a cult like following as a result of the apparent polarizing effect the book has. I really don't have any strong feeling about the book either way; I have never even read it. My comments were specific to the narrow scope of the comments you "seemed" to be making.

My statement made was not a point to make, just a fact from my perception and Pirsig's;

Do you see the contradiction in this statement? What part of "my perception" and "Pirsig's philosophical theory" (and much less your interpretation of that) is "FACT"?

Looking past the obvious contradictions is that you have aligned your belief system with your interpretation of Pirsig's work. Pirsig's work has become to a greater or less extent your "Bible" for life.

To get to the point, you booby trapped this thread and put yourself right in the direct line of fire. You invoked the Pirsig book to make your point, and then immediately see any contradiction of your view as not only that but also rejection of your's and Pirsig's belief system. You might have just as well been quoting scripture (i.e. the Bible) because that would have resulted in the same thing.

Initially I was sorry you went away mad. But now that I researched the book (I ordered an original hardback and a new paperback reprint from Amazon) as I have analyzed what happened, you should stay away until you develop a little more maturity and clearly stay off your flavor of religion in the open forums. 1982SZ (if you do come back) please refrain from this type of veiled philosophical dialog. Keep it in the OT section if at all.

Apologies to the other readers of this thread as this has gotten completely Off Topic and it is not my intent to propagate this thread to that end. Also apologies to PsyGuy who started the thread.

The simple point to point connections I described should solve your issues if the parts are good. If you clean those connections and then use some dialectic grease to keep the corrosion from coming back.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showpost.php?p=1119702&postcount=5