Poor performance puzzling me..

[bellucci]

Just an observation... when I was trying to figure out why my 1100 es was running poorly, I thought that one cylinder was not firing. So I pulled a plug wire off to see if anything changed. After I got up off my a$$, I realized that #3 was not getting any fuel but it sure was getting spark... tapped on the bowl with the end of a hammer and voila, running on 4... I think TheCafeKid is on the right track, but I was bored at work,so i just put in my 2 cents...

[TheBigRed]

It sounds as if you've gone through A LOT of different possible causes, and possibly doing or trying more than one thing at a time?

Actually, it could sound like that, but I've only been doing one change at a time then testing. Like I said it was like this all last year and I was able to try different things at different times, just posting it all in one concise post to give an idea of where I've been already.

This can get tedious, and isnt conducive to finding the problem. Beleive, Ive been there. You need to start out at ONE thing, and completely eliminate it from the equation.

So what do we know?

We know that the exhaust is modified, and that the intake can/will/has been modified. I'd suggest, for these trials, sticking with the UNI filter, as you are correct, its CLOSEST to factory flow. Starting at the airbox, what can we look at?
1) are you running the lid on the box?

Yes, the lid is there.

2) if so, is the airbox SEALED properly?

Yes, weather stripping has been placed around the perimeter to seal. Though, to be honest, when I was messing with the rag in the intake, there is Nothing in the "snorkel" area, so it's basically open.

3) are the airbox boots seated and sealing well? (ive had them LOOK as if they are, but move the box and Ta Da! they slip right off the carbs.. which is the same as running NO filter restriction, and will do exactly what you are talking about. If they are hard, they've usually shrunken back toward the box, and really arent doing their job)

This should be on my list as well, to spray some wd (etc) around to see if there is any effect on engine speed.

After assuring that is all good, lets move on to the carbs themselves

What do we know?
Stock jetting? If so, you night need a change. The 650 those previously ran on had a larger displacement (they are actually larger than 650CC) so you may be bogging out from being too rich.. Establish your jet sizes, and needle position, this will help all who are trying to pin this down with you, as WE know what you are working with.

Maybe I didn't make this clear enough. The carbs in it now are the original carbs with the original jets that the 550 was using before I started this whole project. I used a k&l kit in them to make them usable on the 650 so I could ride it while cleaning it's carbs (that ended up being a 2 year cleaning..) So, the Jets and bodies themselves are the original 550 jets and the correct sizes from stock.

Once you have that, we an address possible jetting changes if needed. But in the meantime, lets make sure the diaphrams are good as well, eliminate it from the equation.

Youve said you will check the index on them, so that covers that.

I may get to this on Sunday if I can get a kitchen pass.

Now, YOU know what happens to the bike, but what you need to tell us is, not WHERE in the RPM range it happens, or at what speed, because that has no real bearing on anything (assuming here, your problem ISNT timing, but we arent going to work on THAT now, because thats doing to many things at once) But RATHER, what THROTTLE POSITION this starts to occur. 0-1/4 throttle could be pilot or pilot needle transition, 1/4 -3/4 throttle is likely a needle issue, and beyond that is WOT, or all main jet. So at what throttle position does it start to break up? or just not respond anymore? It may help to mark off your throttle in increments as above with tape so you can visualize exactly where the problem starts to occur..

This happens at 1/2 to full throttle. That being said, if I pull full throttle from say 2.5k it will pull strong till it gets to 4~5k.

I am not assuming you're stupid, or you dont know this stuff already. I know this stuff, and sometimes, in the heat of battling with a bike that isnt cooperating, I start into attempting more than one fix, and then you never know what worked or what didnt. It helps (me anyway) to take things down to basic components or such. May help you too. Otherwise I end up running around trying this and that hoping for a silver bullet fix..

I'm not taking any of it that way. Like I said, it's been doing this since it was put together last winter (08-09) and I've gotten to the point I'm out of ideas, so looking for help.

Unfortunately with a wife and 2 little ones (both under 3) it's kinda hard to carve out decent time to "fiddle" with the bike. And working in my poorly lit garage after dark is a pain (think an hour and a half to put carbs back in vs 35 min).

Hopefully this helps clarify/answer some of your questions.

Amos

[TheCafeKid]

You have no snorkel? Well, thats a start..

[TheBigRed]

You have no snorkel? Well, thats a start..

To clarify, this airbox is a bit different from the 850's etc. the cover has built into it what I would best describe as the snorkel of the 850's in that the air flows in an S pattern through the cover to get to the filter.

Here is a link to the bikebandit diagram

http://www.bikebandit.com/assets/schematics/Suzuki/SU0095_013.gif

I have everything pictured there the "snorkel" is built into the cover which is at the top of that picture.

Amos

[TheBigRed]

BTW, I'll get some garage time this evening to pull the plugs for a photo shoot..


And here they are: I'm pretty sure they are left to right 1 -> 4, but I may have gotten them reversed, but they are all really close so I'm not sure it matters much.












Amos

[chef1366]

With all the tweaks you've done it's time to try another ignitor.

[TheBigRed]

With all the tweaks you've done it's time to try another ignitor.

Oh, yeah, forgot about that. When it lost spark last spring after bringing it home this was another suspect item that I swapped from the 650 to the 550 (after double/tripple checking that the part numbers were the same) to make sure it wasn't blown when the R/R shorted out at Duanes. I'm getting spark on all four, and as you can see from the plugs it looks like I am a tad on the lean side.

Amos

[TheBigRed]

Just took 30 min to check the diaphrams and indexing. They were all good and indexed correctly.

Now the bad news.. I was doing it on the bike and ended up cross threading one of the screws when trying to get it back in. Good news is they are through holes and I have a tap and die set so I should be able to repair the threads, but that means taking the carbs off of the bike and dis-assembling the rack.

Oh well. In thinking about it last night I figured I'd order the rubber boots from the plenum to the carbs anyway so that we can eliminate them as the cause as well.

I'd like to order jets as well if I have to do that down the road anyway (really don't like taking off and putting the carbs back on all the time) but don't know what size to go with (especially at $7 a piece)?

Amos

[rustybronco]

Actually the jetting looks to be slightly rich, especially the second from the left and the one on the right. BUT! what color is showing way down deep where the insulator meets the outer shell? that is where you check the main jetting.

when your bike hits that wall, does it sound like the ignition (spark) is breaking up?

beg borrow or ? a timing light and check the advance.

you can also check for erratic spark with the timing light, it will show up as erratic flashing.

[Nessism]

If you have another ignitor I'd try it as Chef suggests. The engine hitting a wall is a common symptom of ignitor failure. Those holes in the mufflers will change the mixture some but not enough to cause the bike to fall on it's face. You could always go up a couple sizes on the mains and try but you shouldn't need an entire jet kit as long as the stock airbox is still in place. Only other thing I can think of is to make sure your ignition advance is working - grab hold of the rotor and turn it with your fingers, it should rotate a few degrees and snap back under spring load when you release it.

Good luck and hope you figure it out.

[drejal]

this thread caught my eye, because it's slightly similar to a problem I was having with my 550L. I just skimmed through the thread so, if this idea has been covered/solved, forgive me!

Have you checked the voltage to the coils? My 550 was "hitting a wall" when I started getting around 5~6k, and it would stumble up to about 8k, and just couldn't make it to redline. Found I only had 9.5v @ the coils, did coil relay mod, now getting full 12V at coils, and it easily hits redline now.

just my $.02 worth.

AA

[Turtleface]

this thread caught my eye, because it's slightly similar to a problem I was having with my 550L. I just skimmed through the thread so, if this idea has been covered/solved, forgive me!

Have you checked the voltage to the coils? My 550 was "hitting a wall" when I started getting around 5~6k, and it would stumble up to about 8k, and just couldn't make it to redline. Found I only had 9.5v @ the coils, did coil relay mod, now getting full 12V at coils, and it easily hits redline now.

just my $.02 worth.

AA

I had the same thing on my 1100E. Engine ran perfect up until about 5-6k, then lost all ability to accelerate. Bike would usually maintain speed @ about 45-50. Tone of the engine would also change as well. My coils needed replacing, coil mod alone wasn't enough. Might be worth it to break out the multi-meter.

[Rick65Cat]

• Changed air filter back to K&N drop in replacement. No improvement

1. Loosen air filter element to allow freer air flow to see if maybe filters are over-oiled and not allowing enough air flow for engine

Amos

(I read through all the posts, and didn't see anyone responding about this.)

Yup been there, done that. Wouldn't rev in the upper ranges. I had to re-wash out my filter then oil it again. Only sparingly the second time.
Ran much better.

Rinse yours out, dry it as best you can and give it a short test run without oil. A short run won't hurt it without oil.

[TheBigRed]

Now the bad news.. I was doing it on the bike and ended up cross threading one of the screws when trying to get it back in.

I used the tap and die set to re-run the threads on the screw itself, then was able to get it threaded back into the hole, carefully, so while I may want to address this down the road things are back together for now.

Actually the jetting looks to be slightly rich, especially the second from the left and the one on the right. BUT! what color is showing way down deep where the insulator meets the outer shell? that is where you check the main jetting.

when your bike hits that wall, does it sound like the ignition (spark) is breaking up?

beg borrow or ? a timing light and check the advance.

you can also check for erratic spark with the timing light, it will show up as erratic flashing.

The color down appears (as best I can see it) to be a light tan, but it is hard to see all the way down in there..

I may have to see if the local auto store has a timing light, I'm just not sure I would know how to use it properly..

Only other thing I can think of is to make sure your ignition advance is working - grab hold of the rotor and turn it with your fingers, it should rotate a few degrees and snap back under spring load when you release it.

Good luck and hope you figure it out.

Ness, I've actually already checked that, even watched it with the engine running to see it expand out then come back in, it appears to be working properly.

Have you checked the voltage to the coils? My 550 was "hitting a wall" when I started getting around 5~6k, and it would stumble up to about 8k, and just couldn't make it to redline. Found I only had 9.5v @ the coils, did coil relay mod, now getting full 12V at coils, and it easily hits redline now.

just my $.02 worth.

AA

Drejal, That got me thinking and I went out and took a few measurements. With the headlight on and ignition turned on I was getting about 9V from the coils to ground, when I turned the headlight off it jumped up to about 10.5V. That's when I realized I soldered the spade connectors that I had to add to the harness since the 550's coils were hard wired, and thought (since I'm really not that good at soldering) could be eating some of the voltage. I cut off my connectors and just crimped some on instead, that got me up to about 11.4V (since I had been doing testing etc I thought that would be close enough as the battery was probably discharging during my measurements, however I didn't think about it till later I should have measured the battery voltage to verify.

Took it out for a ride after that, and I've still got the problem. I may still look into the relay mod down the road a bit though.

(I read through all the posts, and didn't see anyone responding about this.)

Yup been there, done that. Wouldn't rev in the upper ranges. I had to re-wash out my filter then oil it again. Only sparingly the second time.
Ran much better.

Rinse yours out, dry it as best you can and give it a short test run without oil. A short run won't hurt it without oil.

This is simple enough for me to try out, and is on my list above. The oil used is what came with it in the little tube, and who knows how old it is. I have a K&N recharge kit so I'll give it a try sometime this week.



As another note, on my ride I did pay closer attention to things and it will run above 5k and not "hit a wall" as long as I"m patient in getting there and use no more than 1/2 throttle, anything above that and it changes everything, but below that throttle opening it will pull, all be it slowly above 5k without the change (it's just very hard to not keep opening the throttle however slowly as you are accelerating. )

Amos

[gina1984]

I think instead of trying again and again its better to go and meet the auto mechanic and get the solution of your problem.