GS1150 wheel on GS1000

[TheCafeKid]

i disagree...
suzuki used a 150/70 on a 3.5" wheel on a 89 750 katana.
i used the same tire(parted out 750 kat) on my 85 1150E.
fit and looked perfect.

I'll second that disagreement. At least with the Avons I used on mine. A flatter profile tire may not work as well.

[gmansyz]

Okay

Okay, I am not saying it doesn't work and tires can be made for specific bikes and rims, it is not quite optimum. But, can still work. Now I forgot who had the 3.0" wheel?
Laters
Greg

[John Kat]

John - I need to think about it more. I think I get what you are saying but I don't believe it works like that as the edge of the hub is irrelevant to where the wheel ends up in the swingarm as it doesn't touch anything..

You are right about that but I only used the edge of the hub as an intermediate measuring point as the bearing is recessed behind this edge.
The net offset I've given is the distance between the two only important parts of the wheel:
1) the center line of the wheel ( the width divided by two)
2) the outer edge of the LH bearing where the spacers come in contact to keep the wheel tight in the swingarm.
By spacers, I mean of course all the spacers including the one in the rear sprocket carrier.
According to my measurements the wheel center line is offset from the point where the wheel bearing touches the first spacer by 50 mm for the GS 1000/1100 and 54 mm for the 1150.
If you use the same LH spacers for both types of wheels... bingo the 1150 wheel will be offset by 4 mm to the right
What could be wrong with that logic?

[John Kat]

And here's why the offset was increased for the GS 1150 over the GS 1000/1100.
There was not enough room to fit a larger tire between the rim and the chain.
The following picture shows the available space left on an 1100 Kat with it's original 2.5" wheel fitted with a 130/90*17" Dunlop GT501 tire.
The chain is a 530 BTW.

[salty_monk]

And the winner is.... (insert Drum roll here.......)









GS Express!

(Although John Kat is sort of right too...) Blower & Cafe - sorry boys...

I measured both sets of wheels today & then did a drawing of them. I will post a screenshot below (as soon as I get time) but it won't be very clear. It is however very easy to see where the spacers need to go now, the measurements all add up. My measuring was done with a straight edge & a very expensive Mitutoyo vernier caliper so will be pretty accurate.

The spacers need to be:

1. 2.75mm between the bearing & the sprocket drive spacer (Moving the wheel 2.75mm to the right without altering the chainline, this corrects the offset that John Kat was seeing). This is good news for me as it also will give another 2.75mm between the chain & the tyre.

2. 2.25mm spacer on the OUTSIDE of the caliper bracket.

So.. there we have it. I am sure that my measurements are not 100% but they should be good to within 0.25mm for sure.
The 1150 spacer & bearings measure 111mm
The 1000 spacer & bearings measures 116mm

So we have the 5mm difference.

There is one caveat & that is that the brake rotor mounting surface is also 1mm different. In theory to make an exact match we'd need to take 1mm off the inside of the caliper bracket & put a 3.25mm spacer on the OUTSIDE instead of the 2.25. In practice I expect this 1mm difference will not be a big deal as there should be room in the caliper for it to offset by 1mm & still work fine, I guess I'll find that out when I get to that stage.

I suspect a 3mm on the sprocket side & a 2mm on the outside of the caliper bracket will work find in practice.... I will find out as I go through the mod & report back.

[John Kat]

Now I'm really confused
1) I had believed that with the GS 1000 spacers the 1150 wheel would be offset to the right by 4mm.
According to your measurements you need to add another 2.75 mm spacer to move the wheel FURTHER to the right?
To me this would make the offset even larger at 6.75 mm????
2) I measured again the GS 1000 S wheel ( and a GS 750 wire wheel hub) and for both the spacer and bearing distance is 111 mm against the 116 mm you measured????

To try to clarify, will you please state the offset you measure/compute between the left wheel bearing and the wheel center line for both the 1000 and the 1150 wheels.

[blowerbike]

tell me this...
if you use the 1100 sprocket/cush drive/spacer ect...all the stock parts from the drive side...
then how would your drive line change? it wouldn't.
are you talking about centering the wheel in the arm?
fact is that if all the 1100 parts are used on the drive side then the drive line CAN NOT change.
thats what me and josh did.
we spaced the rotor's caliper hanger to center the rotor.
from the rear of the bike everything looked great.

added.
4 pages for a simple bolt on modification blow's my mind.

[John Kat]

tell me this...
if you use the 1100 sprocket/cush drive/spacer ect...all the stock parts from the drive side...
then how would your drive line change? it wouldn't.
are you talking about centering the wheel in the arm?
fact is that if all the 1100 parts are used on the drive side then the drive line CAN NOT change.
thats what me and josh did.
we spaced the rotor's caliper hanger to center the rotor.
from the rear of the bike everything looked great.

added.
4 pages for a simple bolt on modification blow's my mind.

Yes, it seems unreal but the fact is that we don't seem to come to the same conclusions...
I agree with you that the drive line is OK if you use all the original 1000/1100 spacers on the drive side.
The problem is not there.
The problem is that the wheel center line is offset differently from the LH bearing.
This means that while the drive line is fine the wheel is not centered...
To get it right, I shortened the LH spacer by 4 mm.
Doing this the drive line is now off by the same 4 mm that I caught by offsetting the front sprocket by the same amount.
I can't explain it in more simple terms...

[salty_monk]

Blower - Doing this your way you would end up with the wheel off centre about 3mm to the left as you sit on the bike
I'm sure in most cases that is not an issue or even noticeable by eye or by the rider when riding but I'd like to have it right (plus it buys me more room between the rubber & the chain).

I agree the driveline does not change, that is why the spacer needs to go on the WHEEL SIDE of the sprocket drive spacer (Between the sprocket drive spacer & the wheel bearing).

JohnKat's driveline changed because he messed with the spacer on the OUTSIDE of the sprocket drive.

John - I am measuring that the wheel will be off centre the opposite way to you as it appears you have shifted the wheel left (towards the chain side of the bike) but my measurements & GS Express's comments about shift the wheel to the right towards the brake side of the bike.

Dan

[salty_monk]

Can't argue with the facts...

I have these fully dimensioned but these views show things best.

This picture show the bearings aligned on the left hand side. (The bearings & spacers have been drawn as one unit for simplicity).

The red is the 750/1100 2.5" wheel. The white is the 1150 3.5" wheel.

You can see at the top of the picture where I have marked the offset of the centre point of each rim & taking a dimension.



This image shows what happens when I align the rims so that they are on the same centre.

You can see where the spacer needs to be added, the extra 1mm on the brake surface etc.

Again Red is the 2.5" wheel.



This last one should help as well as you can clearly see the hub shape of each wheel. These are not done perfectly (for example I just threw the bearing in there at 30mm dia as I am not manufacturing a wheel & it's not critical for what we need to know) so that's why they will look a little different from an actual suzuki hub/rim.

[John Kat]

Dan, please do me a favor: recheck the bearing to bearing width of the GS 1000/1100 wheel.
I triple checked on my GS 1000 S 18" wheel and it's 111 mm not 116 mm.
I don't have a 17" wheel unmounted to check but I believe there is no difference in the bearing to bearing distance?
From your drawings ( very well done) I can't compute the offset between the wheel CL and the flange of the LH bearing.
Will you please do so for my peace of mind
As I had a GS 750 wire wheel hub lying around, I took the opportunity to measure the bearing to bearing distance.....111 mm again.
I also measured the offset between the Wheel CL and the LH bearing flange : 49 mm compared to 50 mm on the GS 1000/1100 and 54 mm on the GS 1150.

[salty_monk]

John,

110% certain that the 750 wheel is 116mm. My original 1000 wheel must be the same as it is a straight swap.

I measured the top of the flange to the bearing surface at 12.5mm in both cases. On the brake side I measured it at 4mm in both cases (these are accurate to about .25mm or so I would say as there is human error to account for).

Is this the measurement you need? Centre of the rim to the left hand bearing surface (drive side)?

[John Kat]

Dan, I believe we now agree: on one wheel the offset is 54 mm and on the other 51.25 as compared to my 54 and 50 mm. Those numbers are within the possible measurement errors ( on my side ).
My concern is that the numbers appear inverted i.e. the 54 mm is for the 1150 wheel and the 51.25 for the 1000?
This explains why I force the wheel to the left when you want to push it to the right.
Remember that all this started when my tire was touching the brake reaction rod first and then the rear mudgard on the RH side.
Last but not least, I measured the bearing to bearing distance directly by pushing the "micrometer extension rod" directly through the wheel axle.
Did you do the same or was your distance "computed"?
Last question: Which 750 wheel have you measured?
Thanks for the patience!

[tatu]

John,

110% certain that the 750 wheel is 116mm. My original 1000 wheel must be the same as it is a straight swap.

I measured the top of the flange to the bearing surface at 12.5mm in both cases. On the brake side I measured it at 4mm in both cases (these are accurate to about .25mm or so I would say as there is human error to account for).

Doh' I spent a large part of today acheiving the same measurements but going the other way. The ally wheel I'm taking out is an EFE and has the exact same figures as you have,
I could've stayed inside in the warm!!

[TheCafeKid]

There's got to be a maths formula to lay this out easily. I cant imagine a bunch of engineers sitting around playing with bearings and spacers each time the design a new wheel/bike.