Custom Painting Question(s)

[Guest]

Ok ... first off, I have an air compressor, professional sprayer, a 3 peice regulator, air filter and lubrication combo kit, simple green, 1000 grit sandpaper, 600 grit sandpaper, reducer, mineral spirits and paint thinner. I have the breather masks with charcoal filters. I am raring to go ..... however, I wanted to ask all forum members something about the paint process.

I used to sell Toyotas. I had to actually study their assembly line process and visited the Camry assembly plant in Kentucky. Their paint process, if I remember correctly, is something like this ... each sheet of metal on the body is submerged in an anti rust liquid mettalic alloy. It is then heat dried. The primer has mettalic alloy in it and is given either a positive electric charge or a negative one and the metal is given the opposite charge so that the primer magnetically adheres to the surface with a perfect finish. The base coat is applied the same way as well as the pearlescent paints. The process uses magnetic cohesion.

Does anyone know how to do this in a garage mechanic's workshop? I am fully aware that oil based paints, and any type of reducer, mineral spirits, etc. is flammable and I don't want to "experiment" without fully understanding how to do this.

[LeeGS550E]

I don't know how to do that.

I will say this: I didn't do that, and my paint worked out fine. No painting manual I have ever read suggests doing this, and the knowledgable guys that sold me my automotive paint didn't suggest it, and the one time I painted a car, I didn't do it, and that also worked out fine. I say just do normal good quality prep, and you should be fine. IMHO.

[txironhead]

I didn't know that's how they paint Toyotas, but I can attest to what an awesome finish the end result is. The only areas that ever rusted on our old '92 Camry were the areas where the body was damaged by a hit-n-run. My family has owned Toyotas for years and the only one that was prone to rust was an '82 pickup that lived at the beach most of it's life.

It also sounds like a fantastic way to paint a vehicle and completely eliminate runs, sags, improper adhesion and "orange peel". Unfortunately, it also seems far out of the price range of your average weekend warrior. Almost sounds like powder coating, which you can do in your own garage with the Hot Coat system available from Eastwood.

[dardoonk]

I used to be a Technical Engineer for a Toyota & Honda supplier and have spend many, many days in their paint shops. Your right, they have a very specialized system, but keep in mind, they are painting 100 cars an hour on each line, so they can't afford to have errors.
That said, the basic process of painting is the same as you would use. Forget the magnetics & electrons etc... that's more for the rust preventative you are talking about. When a Camry, or any other auto is painted, the primer, basecoat & clearcoat are still sent thru an oven. (about 165F @20min, if I remember correctly).

The adhesion process for the paint is a chemical bond and the oven cures the paint and bakes the body sealer and sound deadening onto the body. (if you remember the white goop they sprayed under the car and applied along the body seams before the car went into the primer booth, they you are familar with my products).

The two most important things to gleen from visiting a factory paint shop.
1] Cleanliness - if you went into the paint area, you remember the air booth you went thru & all the non-lint, non-static clothing
2] compatible products- since you are depending on a chemical reaction to bond the steel to primer to paint to clearcoat, ensuring all your components are compatible is critical. Don't mix brands of primer & paint. That's what happened in the late 80's & early 90's with GM & Ford. Do you remeber all the dark colored F-150's that had paint peeling off? That's basically what happened.

BTW: The Toyota-Georgetown paint shop is the finest shop I have seen.their "1st paint perfect" ratio can be as high as 97% - That means not a single visible error on 97 out of every 100 cars!

[Zooks]

A good coat of paint is at least 90% preparation.

[Nessism]

Automotive paint systems vary between OE and repair paint. The OE paint is a thermosetting paint and requires a high temp bake to cure (typically in the 400F range). The dipping process you talk about for the body is called "E coat" (not sure what E stands for). You want the aftermarket automotive repair paint since this stuff crosslinks chemically at a lower temp. thus it does not require a bake to cure (bake speeds up the cure but does not make it harder/better per say).

I've painted lots of stuff with PPG automotive paint. Two part epoxy primer, base coat, catalized clear. Very durable stuff and sprays like a joy. Two problems for the home user: the paint is very expensive and toxic (particularly the clear). For the price, I bought 1 quart of primer with hardner and paid about $75. Same for clear although there are $50 clears as well but I don't think they are as good. Base colors vary depending on color - I paid $75 for one pint of red for a car repair I made. In the end you will spend a lot of money and have left over paint. Not a bad way to go if you want to paint more than one bike but expensive otherwise.

One last comment is to say that once you go auto paint with proper spray gun rattle cans are pure junk. The paint is not durable and comes out in chunks in comparison.

Good luck.

[Dave8338]

If you want it done right....strip the tank, do an acid etch to the bare metal, epoxy primer, any bondo that may be required to fill small dents, and follow with an acrylic enamel or eurathane base and clear. If you have any specific questions, let me know. Just finished a complete repaint of the father-in-laws 1993 Buick Park Avenue (30,057 actual miles) and at 6", it's flawless. Done hundreds of paint schemes and alot of custom work...can't wait to hit the Virago project with paint, that one will tip the scales! \\/

[rustybronco]

The dipping process you talk about for the body is called "E coat" (not sure what E stands for).

electrocoat.

I've painted lots of stuff with PPG automotive paint. Two part epoxy primer, base coat, catalized clear. Very durable stuff and sprays like a joy. Two problems for the home user: the paint is very expensive and toxic (particularly the clear).

it's the catalyzer thats the problem, not that the rest of the materials are much better.

If you want it done right....strip the tank, do an acid etch to the bare metal,

i'd check the p (product) sheets for the materials you are going to use first, to make sure the acid etch wash is compatible with it. I use an self etching primer in a spray bomb on bare metal.
recommended by the painter at my wifes work and they use ppg global.
and by my brother who is also a painter (automotive).

http://www.duplicolor.com/products/primer.html

one more comment clean, clean, clean then practice...

online sources.
http://www.autopaintdirect.com/ larry a good guy!
http://www.tcpglobal.com/kustomshop/ repackaged ppg???

http://paintforum.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=78

[rickt]

Word of Caution from a Chemist

Anyone considering using modern paint products in their garage should be fully aware of the toxicity issues. Most two-part paints using a hardener or catalyst contain chemicals called isocyanates. These chemicals are colorless and odorless. When spraying paints such as epoxy-based primers, 2K primer-surfacers, and particularly clears, the vapors saturate the air in the immediate area where spraying is being done. A simple cartridge-type respirator has a limited capacity for adsorbing the nasty isocyantes. When that capacity is exceeded, the painter is inhaling the toxic components. You really won't know when it starts happening!

Also, keep in mind that these chemicals can be absorbed through the skin and through mucous membranes.

If you doubt the effects of high-level isocyanate exposure, do a little searching on the internet - it's not pretty. Primary symptom is irreversible central nervous system damage.

The only way that I know of to reduce the risk to an acceptable level is to utilize a remote air supply. These can be purchased for $300-$600 from a number of vendors. The best design has an inflatable hood that covers the head and neck. I have used such a device for the majority of my painting and have experienced no problems other than the pain in the rear that comes from using the hood and attached air line.

Don't take chances with your health!

rickt

[Dave8338]

Anyone considering using modern paint products in their garage should be fully aware of the toxicity issues. Most two-part paints using a hardener or catalyst contain chemicals called isocyanates. These chemicals are colorless and odorless. When spraying paints such as epoxy-based primers, 2K primer-surfacers, and particularly clears, the vapors saturate the air in the immediate area where spraying is being done. A simple cartridge-type respirator has a limited capacity for adsorbing the nasty isocyantes. When that capacity is exceeded, the painter is inhaling the toxic components. You really won't know when it starts happening!

Also, keep in mind that these chemicals can be absorbed through the skin and through mucous membranes.

If you doubt the effects of high-level isocyanate exposure, do a little searching on the internet - it's not pretty. Primary symptom is irreversible central nervous system damage.

The only way that I know of to reduce the risk to an acceptable level is to utilize a remote air supply. These can be purchased for $300-$600 from a number of vendors. The best design has an inflatable hood that covers the head and neck. I have used such a device for the majority of my painting and have experienced no problems other than the pain in the rear that comes from using the hood and attached air line.

Don't take chances with your health!

rickt

You forgot to mention the static build up on the face screen...makes things a little tough to see when applying the clearcoat.

[Nessism]

Anyone considering using modern paint products in their garage should be fully aware of the toxicity issues. Most two-part paints using a hardener or catalyst contain chemicals called isocyanates. These chemicals are colorless and odorless. When spraying paints such as epoxy-based primers, 2K primer-surfacers, and particularly clears, the vapors saturate the air in the immediate area where spraying is being done. A simple cartridge-type respirator has a limited capacity for adsorbing the nasty isocyantes. When that capacity is exceeded, the painter is inhaling the toxic components. You really won't know when it starts happening!

Also, keep in mind that these chemicals can be absorbed through the skin and through mucous membranes.

If you doubt the effects of high-level isocyanate exposure, do a little searching on the internet - it's not pretty. Primary symptom is irreversible central nervous system damage.

The only way that I know of to reduce the risk to an acceptable level is to utilize a remote air supply. These can be purchased for $300-$600 from a number of vendors. The best design has an inflatable hood that covers the head and neck. I have used such a device for the majority of my painting and have experienced no problems other than the pain in the rear that comes from using the hood and attached air line.

Don't take chances with your health!

rickt

I've heard about the health risks but would love to hear at what point the exposure becomes truly hazardous.

I used to work at an automotive assembly plant and have spent a lot of years working in and around the OE auto repair industry. Down draft paint booths are the norm in this environment and I can tell you that very few painters bother with fresh air systems. I was even told that OSHA allows painters to forgo the fresh air hood if a proper down draft booth is employed.

So if a guy is painting a couple of bikes per year, either outside or in a garage where there is good ventilation, is there a serious risk to his health? I try to paint and run out of the fumes but obviously, while spraying the charcoal mask is in taking the fumes. I've never notices any health symptoms but then again this is most likely not the best gauge to use.

So does anyone have any real world info to share regarding the health risks for low level exposure? And please don't just say any exposure is too much. Some people won't ever get their hands dirty and I'm not one of those people.

[rustybronco]

Anyone considering using modern paint products in their garage should be fully aware of the toxicity issues. Most two-part paints using a hardener or catalyst contain chemicals called isocyanates. These chemicals are colorless and odorless. When spraying paints such as epoxy-based primers, 2K primer-surfacers, and particularly clears, the vapors saturate the air in the immediate area where spraying is being done. A simple cartridge-type respirator has a limited capacity for adsorbing the nasty isocyantes. When that capacity is exceeded, the painter is inhaling the toxic components. You really won't know when it starts happening!

Also, keep in mind that these chemicals can be absorbed through the skin and through mucous membranes.

If you doubt the effects of high-level isocyanate exposure, do a little searching on the internet - it's not pretty. Primary symptom is irreversible central nervous system damage.

The only way that I know of to reduce the risk to an acceptable level is to utilize a remote air supply. These can be purchased for $300-$600 from a number of vendors. The best design has an inflatable hood that covers the head and neck. I have used such a device for the majority of my painting and have experienced no problems other than the pain in the rear that comes from using the hood and attached air line.

Don't take chances with your health!

rickt

wise response, but we will/do take risks from time to time.

I use a cartridge mask which is good for about 8 hours exposure to air (sealed in a ziplock when not in use) nitrile gloves, a suit to cover my body, and a large fan to keep the fumes away from me while spraying, nor I do allow man or beast around when spraying and the air must be almost still (neighbors).
that is how how i reduce my risk.

[txironhead]

Anyone familiar with Dupli-Color's new "Paint Shop" series? Apparently it's an enamel premix, with very low toxicity and EPA approved. It was designed for the "home painter". I saw it on Trucks and was fairly impressed with the ease of use and finished product. Can't attest to durability, and from what I've seen it's not available in metallic yet, but seems to be perfect for the "newbie" painter.

[txironhead]

Oh, and this is why most people farm out to get their tins painted. Figure compressor, at least one good spray gun with several cups, air hose, filters, masks, gloves, fresh air system, hood, suits, fans, dedicated "clean" area, cleaning equipment, etc. and you're talking a few thousand for quality stuff. And you haven't even started with paint, reducer, catalyst, sandable primer, sealer primer, clear, bondo (I prefer Dynaglass), scratch glaze, fiberglass mat, resin, tape, masking paper (don't even think of using newspaper if you want a quality job), Xacto knives, funnels, strainers, sandpaper etc.

As soon as I get my scanner working again, I'll post some pics of my "spray bomb" Shadow. It looked like a pro job and lasted at least seven months before I sold it with no fading, discoloration, etc. I know catalyzed paint is more durable and produces better results, but there is something to be said for us poor guys. And yes, I told the buyer it was a spray paint job, he didn't believe me.

[chuckycheese]

Interesting!

This has been a very interesting thread! (I had no idea it was such a sophisticated process.)