Rectifier/Regulator replacement list

[rustybronco]

Jim,
There are also star "heavy duty" stator rewinds and aftermarket ones advertised as giving say an extra 20% and being more robust etc etc.

Some great analysis work you have done here...

Keep up the good work.

Andre,
It is my intent, with the information provided by Jim and others, to "tread lightly" in my choice of the wire gauge and rewind a stator and provide such a comparison between the stock stator and a more "ROBUST??" stator, used with a OEM, Honda and a FET R/R.

My point is this, why would I spend $80-$100 for a part that I can get for $40 ??

for those that are seeking that "little extra" wattage and durability in a charging system and it also may be useful information not provided elsewhere.

as Jim said, for the 90% of those out there that have the Honda R/R mod (I have them on both 850's) it will be fine.

[duaneage]

duaneage

I really was hoping you would not post such comments. Maybe you just don't know any better.

Pos

Have fun with your experiment and I hope you find whatever it is you're looking for.

[Matchless]

Dale,
Exactly what I was emplying. As you know I have always wondered what an exact stock OEM stator was w.r.t wire gauge and amount of turns and did this ever change over the years. We know that very good working results are possible over quite a wide range of variations regardless of everything not being politically correct.

I have had two similar but differently wound stators next to each other, both claiming to have been original stock OEM stators and that made me a bit dubious. So many changes over 30 years by owners and even manufacturers, OEM suppliers and aftermarket suppliers. Who really knows how a fresh stock stator compares to the unkown stator presently fitted or is it a rewound and to what specs.

A so called "ROBUST" stator may be one that gives more wattage/current, but then actually sacrifices longevity or fails easily under abnormal conditions. My experience is that components of a much higher current rating and maximum voltage are more robust and sometimes physically larger, but more expensive, so most manufacturers do not stray too far away from the theoretical maximum limit.

Your test results should be quite interesting.

I think that without doubt we have identified a "better" and preferable R/R. OK in 30 years time we will know for sure!!

[Matchless]

My point is this, why would I spend $80-$100 for a part that I can get for $40 ??

I think yours is most likely the most important comment! Just for interest, my ex Honda GL R/R works perfectly, but if I do stumble accross a SH012 and it is under $10 I may think about a spare!

If we carry on like this we may have Mr Suzuki himself joining the forum soon and asking for advice and help!

[Larry D]

I think yours is most likely the most important comment! Just for interest, my ex Honda GL R/R works perfectly, but if I do stumble accross a SH012 and it is under $10 I may think about a spare!

If we carry on like this we may have Mr Suzuki himself joining the forum soon and asking for advice and help!

Agreed....Im going to keep an eye out for one as well. This r/r was installed on some Yamaha motorcycles, snowmobiles and 4 wheelers, '06 and above. Maybe someone will be parting one out in the future and will sell one not knowing what they have and I can get one for a more comparable price.

[posplayr]

Matchless

Jim,
Just another stone in the bush as we say.
I noticed some wiring diagrams for bikes using the FET R/R that have Delta configured stators, cannot recall the models now off the top of my head. I was wondering if the use of these would now be more "efficient and reliable" together with the FET 50A R/R.
Honda did try a model (VFR) or so with delta wound stators a few years ago and I think the charging on that bike was not very reliable and there were many problems with R/R's at the time and all sorts of fixes.
There are also star "heavy duty" stator rewinds and aftermarket ones advertised as giving say an extra 20% and being more robust etc etc.

Some great analysis work you have done here. I am looking forward to the comparison summary table between the two units!!
Keep up the good work.

I don't know that I can say anything definitive about those specific designs, but I did review the differences between the Y and Delta configurations. Basically it appears as if you use the same wire thickness and the same number of turns, then the power output will be the same. The main difference is in the form of the delivered power re; voltage and current.

In the "Y" configuration, the current in each leg is the same as the current in that leg of the stator coil. However when you measure the voltage across two legs, you are seeing the voltage across two sets of windings and it turns out that the voltage is sqrt(3) larger (multiply by 1.732) than an individual coil voltage.

The dual is true of the delta configuration. When you measure the voltage across two leads, it is the voltage across one coil. The current though is from two coils so the current is increased by the same sqrt(3).

Here are some links that explain this.


http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/worksheets/deltawye.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-%CE%94_transform

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_10/5.html

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_10/5.html

· Δ-connected three-phase voltage sources give greater reliability in the event of winding failure than Y-connected sources. However, Y-connected sources can deliver the same amount of power with less line current than Δ-connected sources.

Since the typical GS stator is a Y configuration, that produces higher output voltage. From the testing I did and what we know the output voltage is marginal at 1200 RPM and gets worse with the OEM/Honda regulators due to higher diode losses than the FET implementation.

If a Delta was used you would think that there would need to be more wraps in the coils and so smaller wire to lower the current and increase the voltage to an acceptable level be make up for the fact that you now lost sqrt(3) factor on output voltage.

In theory at least, there might be a sweet spot where you can reduce the size of the wire, increase the packing density and thereby get more wraps (reduced no air gaps) between the insulated windings for the same volume under the stator cover. If you think about it with very fine wire you can get more copper to wrap around stator.

With a whole bunch of wraps you might even exceed the sqrt(3) factor in voltage and you can go to a delta configuration and maintain the minimum output voltage level. The delta is a a safer configuration as per the comment above. The only way to really improve reliability is to get more copper per turn if comparing Y to Y or Delta to Delta.


If you can confirm that delta configurations have much thinner wire, then you would be validating my analysis. Elsewise there is something else going on.

As far as how much this is related to the R/R? I think the critical constraint in the power deliver is that you need more than 13 volts to adequately charge the battery. Increasing current capacity of a delta will not fire your coils if it is at 7.5 volts output. (13/sqrt(3)). You have to increase the winding to get back to 13V. A lossy R/R with 3 volts of diode drop is going to make it harder to achieve the 13V limit. If the delta and the FET R/R are used together that makes sense if you can't get your wire small enough to get the voltage high enough, then the FET R/R doesn't need as much voltage to produce the 13V (less internal drop) and the reliability of the delta can be implemented while still getting the minimum 13V at idle.

The constraint ,if you think about it is that the stator cover only allows a certain amount of wire to be wrapped on the stator within the space confines. There really is no leap in technology that is going to allow you to pack more copper under the cover. You might get some super conducting copper perhaps, but on a 30 year old bike???? More than likely someone could produce a rotor with stronger magnets and get more power out that way. You would have to rethink the stator configuration depending upon what can be done with the magnets.

Good luck on that, you are now trying to solve an engineering problem with motor design.

Pos

[isleoman]

More than likely someone could produce a rotor with stronger magnets and get more power out that way. You would have to rethink the stator configuration depending upon what can be done with the magnets.

Good luck on that, you are now trying to solve an engineering problem with motor design.

Pos[/QUOTE]

I thought there already are modern sportbikes with Rare Earth magnets. CBR1000rr and other Firblades I think.

[Matchless]

The constraint ,if you think about it is that the stator cover only allows a certain amount of wire to be wrapped on the stator within the space confines. There really is no leap in technology that is going to allow you to pack more copper under the cover.

Good luck on that, you are now trying to solve an engineering problem with motor design.

Actually the space for winding the copper wire is limited to the distance between the iron core of each pole measured right at the bottom at its narrowest and then divided in half. In practice this relates to maximum 3 layers of #18 or #19 AWG wire.

Sorry, I am not attempting to solve a problem or design a better unit, that is way beyond my capabilities and intentions, I was just wondering about those things.

Then I also find it interesting that Mr Honda used a field regulated alternator in 1980 onwards for the CB750's - CB1000's and Mr Suzuki never did. Then why did Mr Honda use a shunt regulated alternator for the Goldwings of that same era? I would have expected it the other way around.

Jim, keep well and thanks.

[posplayr]

Matchless

Actually the space for winding the copper wire is limited to the distance between the iron core of each pole measured right at the bottom at its narrowest and then divided in half. In practice this relates to maximum 3 layers of #18 or #19 AWG wire.

Sounds like you are familiar with the windings; Can you confirm any of the theortical trades between the Delta and Y above? Specifically are the Delta winding of thinner wire to get more loops and higher output voltage?

Is it possible to wire a Y stator with thicker wire to increase wire area by 20% and increase the current output within the same space confines?

Sorry, I am not attempting to solve a problem or design a better unit, that is way beyond my capabilities and intentions,

That was a figurative U . What I should have said is, that it was going to be difficult for me to draw any general conclusions because the issues are detailed design factors that are not nessesarily obvious without actually doing the engineering design.

Then I also find it interesting that Mr Honda used a field regulated alternator in 1980 onwards for the CB750's - CB1000's and Mr Suzuki never did. Then why did Mr Honda use a shunt regulated alternator for the Goldwings of that same era? I would have expected it the other way around.

Who knows there could be any number of factors outside of technical.


I still have some questions in my mind about:

a.) why the Electrosport and OEM units got so much hotter than the Honda when presumably they are similar?
b.) Also what is the impact to the stator current when the shunt control is active?
c.) Does the FH012AA shunt during periods of lower current (i.e. at cross over) as to not create as much of a current spike and it is actually less stressing on the stator?

I'm going to have to get a fan to run at 3K RPM to get those measurements.

Well maybe there will be more....
Pos

[rustybronco]

b.) Also what is the impact to the stator current when the shunt control is active?
c.) Does the FH012AA shunt during periods of lower current (i.e. at cross over) as to not create as much of a current spike and it is actually less stressing on the stator?

I'm going to have to get a fan to run at 3K RPM to get those measurements.

Well maybe there will be more....
Pos

Interesting thought you have there Pos.
the stator is also an inductor, so the phase angle between voltage and current would be off by 90 degrees.

[Matchless]

Pos,
As per my thoughts, to me it seems as if the manufacturers, with all the R&D available to them could never really decide which was the better way to go and some are still using the same approach 30 years onwards.

My rewinding is limited to the GS 18 pole only and I can just confirm that 1.00mm diameter copper wire can only fill 3.5 layers per pole max. I cannot confirm it but it seems as if some OEM stators have 0.9mm diameter wire and have a full 3 layers, but I cannot guarantee whether I had an OEM or a rewound at the time.
Information that was given to me shows the same windings except for the connection being delta instead of star. Same diameter wire and windings as well. I think the stator rewinding guide on GSR is for a delta.

I have never seen a Delta stator in practice for the GS, so not sure, but was told that the same regulator was used.

I could never find any definite specifications to use as a base unfortunately.

[Matchless]

Here is a schematic of the field regulating alternator used by Honda in the early 1980's. The actual structure is very similar to the permanent magnet type. Rotor is direct on crank and stator is wound as with shown two brushes in the stator cover for the electromagnet rotor. On the CB Honda this unit is part of the motor and not a seperate unit and is on the right hand side where the Suzuki points or pickup coils are.

The R/R is external and in looks could easily be confused with the shunt type. Please note that here they use field regulating R/R's that are NOT interchangeable with the shunt type and will not work on the GS!

The two extra wires B and F here could easily be confused with "sensing" or reference wires, but is not the same.

[posplayr]

Generator Design

Pos,
As per my thoughts, to me it seems as if the manufacturers, with all the R&D available to them could never really decide which was the better way to go and some are still using the same approach 30 years onwards.

Further to comments, I spent some time reading an old text on motor design looking for various alternative approaches for Synchronous AC machines. While the lack of a Field control and the associated crow bar regulation of the Suzuki regulator might seem brute force, in a sense it is the result of a relatively elegant compromise solution from a system perspective (that might be a stretch I know).

There were at the time (early 80's) various alternatives to the permanent magnet generator design. Most of the alternatives are significantly more complex. Any of the alternator designs, require a separate housed device that has to be external to the crank case due to the requirement for a slip ring or brush to control the rotor mounted Field coil (see Matchless's Honda example above and the GSXR design used at least between 86-95). Technology did exist at the time for brushless excitation but that was primarily limited to aircraft and military systems probably due to cost.


I am drawn back to a statement that a fellow GS member (I won't guess who it was because I don't remember) made here a while back about the charging system. The statement was something to the effect that "the charging system is not intended to charge the battery". I'm pretty sure that he had heard that conclusion from someone more knowledgeable about the charging as the statement was unqualified or elaborated on. So I'll guess further as to the meaning..

The system level elegance that I speak of is to take the simplest generator design and match it's output to the demand curve for the motorcycle as a function of RPM. Using this approach, the system can be designed simply and is almost fool proof as even without any voltage controls the generator and load are matched. OK so you can't quite do that so you need to have some regulation because the battery is relatively intolerant of over charging. Some form of regulation is required. Unfortunately for Suzuki, the elegance of the systems engineering did not translate into a well executed R/R design. Given the recent heating of my Electrosport it is not a whole lot better. Honda did a better job on their R/R.

The R/R's get hot because of diode voltage drops. The larger the diodes the lower the drops (see the upper diodes of the FH012AA dropping only 1V vz. the 1.7v in the others). This is pretty much the same whether the R/R is regulating of not. I measured about 10 amps demand at idle and about 12.5 amps at 4000 rpm. So while there might be some variations in crowbar controls, it is important regardless of RPM to have lower drops.

Attempts to increase the current capacity or the stator, will further tax the R/R as it has to provide more regulation to limit the output power that the load is not absorbing. In the previous calculations I estimated that the FH012AA would make more power available if the load demanded it. Because there is a lower drop in the diode there is more drop across the stator and therefore more power dissipated in the stator.

Increasing wire size will increase the current capacity and increase the currents when shunted which force the R/R to shunt more current. If there is not a larger load to absorb this increased capacity, then it is not a desirable options.

The bottom line seems to be that the solution for Suzuki was to develop a charging system that matched the load (light, ignition, blinkers), and any increases in capacity should only come with an increase in demand (heater units and the like). So the crow bar regulation was simply fine tuning of the load.

Pos

[posplayr]

More MOSFET Shunt R/R's

http://forum.svrider.com/showthread.php?t=91050&highlight=rectifier&page=2

I did some research on the R/R that the OP jim.randall used - it too is a Shindengen MOSFET unit. Most of the late model CBRs utilize the same type of R/R and the latest CBR1000 looks like it uses the FH0012 with the same connectors.

The designation on the CBR1000 unit is FH008EB - the 'F' designates it is an FET model - the Shunt/SCR ones by same manufacturer have an 'S' prefix.
Unfortunately I can't find exact specs on the FH008 unit but is still an excellent choice given it uses the MOSFET technology.

Look for these others (thanks Rusty)

Jim,
it looks like there are also fh008eb, fh010 and fh011 R/R's out there. so far no current ratings.

Pos

Edit More comments:

Mine measures 14.4 from idle to redline - I ran 10 ga wires straight to the battery with a 30A inline fuse.

Another successful R/R upgrade using a CBR1000RR part. Sorry, no pictures. I didn't have a lot of time to work today while the kids were napping. When I was finished, I measured a perfect 13.8V at everything above 2500 RPM and 13.5 at idle.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/HONDA-CBR1000RR-REGULATOR-RECTIFIER-CBR-1000-1000RR-_W0QQitemZ200293580131QQcmdZViewItem

More description of Suzuki failure to provide good R/R design on the SV650's

http://webpages.charter.net/jrandall/vrr/vrr_upgrade.htm

http://www.triumphrat.net/sprint-forum/104504-rectifier-regulator-upgrade.html

Another alternative that has MOSFET control, is the FH010 - this is used on late-model Kawasakis (ZZX10 /14) and also some R1 & FJR in the 2005/2006 range. It has slightly lower power rating than the 12 but still plenty for the SV. That 010 unit has same form factor as the 012.

Exactly as I mounted my FH012 CZ Eddie - but the *12 model is MUCH more compact. I would recommend against the FH011 model simply because of its physical size but nice job of installing .
Also although the smaller spade 14-16ga terminal is a more compact fit in the connector, try to stuff a 12ga wire into it to get less loss.

[Matchless]

Here is a connection schematic for the lugs on the new Shindengen FET regulator series FH0010 to FH0014. Some have wire tails and some have spade terminals.