High Accuracy Degree Wheel

[posplayr]

One question, does it really matter performance wise? Can't see 1/10 of a degree making any difference at all in the big scheme of things. That's like one zillisecond of difference in when the valves actually open and close. Does it get another horsepower? Another tenth of a horsepower? Does it alter the power band any amount that can be measured?

Just seems like overkill unless you are dyno testing the engine every tenth of a degree on both cams, with the carburetor already dialed in and the ignition set perfectly. Even then I can't imagine it would matter much.

Just an honest question from someone who's never done it, but read all about it and getting ready to jump into it on my 550/673. As soon as I find a degree wheel. Was going to print one up but if a tenth of a degree matters I can see that wouldn't be very good.

I think I have already described "why" starting at the top of the thread. It has less to do with getting absolute best hp v.s. how fast you can get the cam alignment numbers to converge.

It should be clear that the racers use big wheels(e.g. 18" wheels) and will popoo you for using a dinky 8" wheel. But then when you show with precision sighting the 8" wheel is more accurate that an bent wire on the 18" wheel they poopo that as well as if it doesn't matter. So popoo no matter what.

When you are degreeing your cams using a piece of bent wire and a 8" wheel and you can't figure out why you are going around in circles, you might try my suggestion and dial it in in two passes instead of 5-7.

[tkent02]

I read all that. Just can't really see how it matters. Apparently Suzuki slaps them together with really sloppy tolerances and they mostly run half assed OK, I have seen quite a few which were off one tooth that ran, I wouldn't say OK but the POs didn't notice anything wrong. Again, not an expert at this, just can't se how .1 degrees can have any effect at all.

[stetracer]

Varying Lobe Separation Angle
Tighten	Widen
Moves Torque to Lower RPM	Raise Torque to Higher RPM
Increases Maximum Torque	Reduces Maximum Torque
Narrow Powerband	Broadens Power Band
Builds Higher Cylinder Pressure	Reduce Maximum Cylinder Pressure
Increase Chance of Engine Knock	Decrease Chance of Engine Knock
Increase Cranking Compression	Decrease Cranking Compression
Increase Efective Compression	Decrease Efective Compression
Idle Vacuum is Reduced	Idle Vacuum is Increased
Idle Quality Suffers	Idle Quality Improves
Open Valve-Overlap Increases	Open Valve-Overlap Decreases
Closed Valve-Overlap Increases	Closed Valve-Overlap Decreases
Natural EGR Efect Increases	Natural EGR Efect is Reduced
Decreases Piston-to-Valve Clerance	Increases Piston-to-Valve Clerance

---

Lobe Separation Angle

Above 114 Deg. = Extremely Wide

114-112 Deg. = Wide

112-110 Deg. = Moderately Wide

110-108 Deg. = Moderate

108-106 Deg. = Moderately Tight

106-104 Deg. = Tight

Below 104 Deg. = Extremely Tight

---

Advancing/Retarding Cam Timing
Advancing	Retarding
Begins Intake Event Sooner	Delays Intake Event Closes Intake
Open Intake Valve Sooner	Keeps Intake Valve Open Later
Builds More Low-End Torque	Builds More High-End Power
Decrease Piston-Intake Valve Clerance	Increase Piston-Intake Valve Clerance
Increase Piston-Exhaust Valve Clerance	Decrease Piston-Exhaust Valve Clerance

Just thought this might help some understand what moving the lobe centers around does

[stetracer]

I have a High School diploma & build faster engines than either one of you! Ray!

Ditto

That is to funny.

[stetracer]

I read all that. Just can't really see how it matters. Apparently Suzuki slaps them together with really sloppy tolerances and they mostly run half assed OK, I have seen quite a few which were off one tooth that ran, I wouldn't say OK but the POs didn't notice anything wrong. Again, not an expert at this, just can't se how .1 degrees can have any effect at all.

That is exactly why when you have two of the same stock bikes one will be quicker than the other even with the same rider
I for one do not like leaving things half assed.
If you do a rebuild and mill your head you change you lobe centers.

[posplayr]

I read all that. Just can't really see how it matters. Apparently Suzuki slaps them together with really sloppy tolerances and they mostly run half assed OK, I have seen quite a few which were off one tooth that ran, I wouldn't say OK but the POs didn't notice anything wrong. Again, not an expert at this, just can't se how .1 degrees can have any effect at all.

You may be reading but your comprehension level is pretty low. Ask yourself why 18" degree wheels are used by racers? If you don't know the answer, then re read this thread till you get it. It has been posted more than once.

[rustybronco]

Dredging up an almost seven year old thread just to berate a point someone made.

Wow, simply wow.

[posplayr]

Dredging up an almost seven year old thread just to berate a point someone made.

Wow, simply wow.

Rusty,
The referenced post by Ray reinforces the point of the thread, despite his own denigrating postings in this thread. If the truth is derogatory towards Ray then that is not my fault. There are people interested in cams and degreeing of same which is why I researched this thread.

You might also consider where this thread is posted and the fact that it was started in 2009 is kind of irrelevant to the discussion. It is a sticky for a reason, and complementing the information rather than detracting from it would probably be more in line with forum policies don't you think?
Forum: Popular Technical Info

[tkent02]

Lets all just argue about it, that will help. And my comprehension is just fine, thank you.

[tkent02]

Varying Lobe Separation Angle
Tighten	Widen
Moves Torque to Lower RPM	Raise Torque to Higher RPM
Increases Maximum Torque	Reduces Maximum Torque
Narrow Powerband	Broadens Power Band
Builds Higher Cylinder Pressure	Reduce Maximum Cylinder Pressure
Increase Chance of Engine Knock	Decrease Chance of Engine Knock
Increase Cranking Compression	Decrease Cranking Compression
Increase Efective Compression	Decrease Efective Compression
Idle Vacuum is Reduced	Idle Vacuum is Increased
Idle Quality Suffers	Idle Quality Improves
Open Valve-Overlap Increases	Open Valve-Overlap Decreases
Closed Valve-Overlap Increases	Closed Valve-Overlap Decreases
Natural EGR Efect Increases	Natural EGR Efect is Reduced
Decreases Piston-to-Valve Clerance	Increases Piston-to-Valve Clerance

---

Lobe Separation Angle

Above 114 Deg. = Extremely Wide

114-112 Deg. = Wide

112-110 Deg. = Moderately Wide

110-108 Deg. = Moderate

108-106 Deg. = Moderately Tight

106-104 Deg. = Tight

Below 104 Deg. = Extremely Tight

---

Advancing/Retarding Cam Timing
Advancing	Retarding
Begins Intake Event Sooner	Delays Intake Event Closes Intake
Open Intake Valve Sooner	Keeps Intake Valve Open Later
Builds More Low-End Torque	Builds More High-End Power
Decrease Piston-Intake Valve Clerance	Increase Piston-Intake Valve Clerance
Increase Piston-Exhaust Valve Clerance	Decrease Piston-Exhaust Valve Clerance

Just thought this might help some understand what moving the lobe centers around does

Very helpful, thanks.

[JJ]

The difference is so minuscule that it doesn't really matter in the real world. A coat hanger wire with a point ground on it, or a dulled razor blade. Not a penny's worth of difference between the two, much less pages and pages of debating/arguing about it.

Sheesh!

[posplayr]

Lets all just argue about it, that will help. And my comprehension is just fine, thank you.

feel free to report back you findings after you have degreed your cams using using an 9" degree wheel with a piece of close hanger.

[tkent02]

Don't believe I ever mentioned I was going to do that.

[posplayr]

If I said you can degree a set of cams as accurately with an 9" degree wheel using the razor as you can with an 18" wheel using a piece of wire would you believe that?

Of course then the subject leads to why do I need to degree a a cam with 9" or 18" degree wheel at all? To which I say is not the subject. But if you don't care , can't tell or don't know, then you are wasting your time degreeing cams in the first place.

Is that plain enough?

[tkent02]

No, explain it again please? My comprehension is not very good.