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    #46
    Originally posted by tkent02 View Post
    One question, does it really matter performance wise? Can't see 1/10 of a degree making any difference at all in the big scheme of things. That's like one zillisecond of difference in when the valves actually open and close. Does it get another horsepower? Another tenth of a horsepower? Does it alter the power band any amount that can be measured?

    Just seems like overkill unless you are dyno testing the engine every tenth of a degree on both cams, with the carburetor already dialed in and the ignition set perfectly. Even then I can't imagine it would matter much.

    Just an honest question from someone who's never done it, but read all about it and getting ready to jump into it on my 550/673. As soon as I find a degree wheel. Was going to print one up but if a tenth of a degree matters I can see that wouldn't be very good.
    I think I have already described "why" starting at the top of the thread. It has less to do with getting absolute best hp v.s. how fast you can get the cam alignment numbers to converge.

    It should be clear that the racers use big wheels(e.g. 18" wheels) and will popoo you for using a dinky 8" wheel. But then when you show with precision sighting the 8" wheel is more accurate that an bent wire on the 18" wheel they poopo that as well as if it doesn't matter. So popoo no matter what.

    When you are degreeing your cams using a piece of bent wire and a 8" wheel and you can't figure out why you are going around in circles, you might try my suggestion and dial it in in two passes instead of 5-7.
    Last edited by posplayr; 01-31-2016, 12:56 AM.

    Comment


      #47
      I read all that. Just can't really see how it matters. Apparently Suzuki slaps them together with really sloppy tolerances and they mostly run half assed OK, I have seen quite a few which were off one tooth that ran, I wouldn't say OK but the POs didn't notice anything wrong. Again, not an expert at this, just can't se how .1 degrees can have any effect at all.
      http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...tatesMap-1.jpg

      Life is too short to ride an L.

      Comment


        #48
        Varying Lobe Separation Angle
        Tighten Widen
        Moves Torque to Lower RPM Raise Torque to Higher RPM
        Increases Maximum Torque Reduces Maximum Torque
        Narrow Powerband Broadens Power Band
        Builds Higher Cylinder Pressure Reduce Maximum Cylinder Pressure
        Increase Chance of Engine Knock Decrease Chance of Engine Knock
        Increase Cranking Compression Decrease Cranking Compression
        Increase Efective Compression Decrease Efective Compression
        Idle Vacuum is Reduced Idle Vacuum is Increased
        Idle Quality Suffers Idle Quality Improves
        Open Valve-Overlap Increases Open Valve-Overlap Decreases
        Closed Valve-Overlap Increases Closed Valve-Overlap Decreases
        Natural EGR Efect Increases Natural EGR Efect is Reduced
        Decreases Piston-to-Valve Clerance Increases Piston-to-Valve Clerance


        Lobe Separation Angle
        Above 114 Deg. = Extremely Wide
        114-112 Deg. = Wide
        112-110 Deg. = Moderately Wide
        110-108 Deg. = Moderate
        108-106 Deg. = Moderately Tight
        106-104 Deg. = Tight
        Below 104 Deg. = Extremely Tight

        Advancing/Retarding Cam Timing
        Advancing Retarding
        Begins Intake Event Sooner Delays Intake Event Closes Intake
        Open Intake Valve Sooner Keeps Intake Valve Open Later
        Builds More Low-End Torque Builds More High-End Power
        Decrease Piston-Intake Valve Clerance Increase Piston-Intake Valve Clerance
        Increase Piston-Exhaust Valve Clerance Decrease Piston-Exhaust Valve Clerance
        Just thought this might help some understand what moving the lobe centers around does
        My stable
        84 GSX1100EFG-10.62 @ 125 mph 64'' W/B.
        85 GS1150-9.72@146mph stock W/B.
        88 GSXR1100-dragbike 9.18@139.92mph/5.68@118mph.
        98 Bandit 1200-9.38@146mph/6.02@121mph.
        90 Suzuki GS 1425cc FBG Pro Stock chassis 5.42@124mph
        06 GSXR750 10.44@135mph
        00 Honda elite 80 pit bike

        Comment


          #49
          Originally posted by rapidray View Post
          I have a High School diploma & build faster engines than either one of you! Ray!
          Ditto

          That is to funny.
          My stable
          84 GSX1100EFG-10.62 @ 125 mph 64'' W/B.
          85 GS1150-9.72@146mph stock W/B.
          88 GSXR1100-dragbike 9.18@139.92mph/5.68@118mph.
          98 Bandit 1200-9.38@146mph/6.02@121mph.
          90 Suzuki GS 1425cc FBG Pro Stock chassis 5.42@124mph
          06 GSXR750 10.44@135mph
          00 Honda elite 80 pit bike

          Comment


            #50
            Originally posted by tkent02 View Post
            I read all that. Just can't really see how it matters. Apparently Suzuki slaps them together with really sloppy tolerances and they mostly run half assed OK, I have seen quite a few which were off one tooth that ran, I wouldn't say OK but the POs didn't notice anything wrong. Again, not an expert at this, just can't se how .1 degrees can have any effect at all.
            That is exactly why when you have two of the same stock bikes one will be quicker than the other even with the same rider
            I for one do not like leaving things half assed.
            If you do a rebuild and mill your head you change you lobe centers.
            My stable
            84 GSX1100EFG-10.62 @ 125 mph 64'' W/B.
            85 GS1150-9.72@146mph stock W/B.
            88 GSXR1100-dragbike 9.18@139.92mph/5.68@118mph.
            98 Bandit 1200-9.38@146mph/6.02@121mph.
            90 Suzuki GS 1425cc FBG Pro Stock chassis 5.42@124mph
            06 GSXR750 10.44@135mph
            00 Honda elite 80 pit bike

            Comment


              #51
              Originally posted by tkent02 View Post
              I read all that. Just can't really see how it matters. Apparently Suzuki slaps them together with really sloppy tolerances and they mostly run half assed OK, I have seen quite a few which were off one tooth that ran, I wouldn't say OK but the POs didn't notice anything wrong. Again, not an expert at this, just can't se how .1 degrees can have any effect at all.
              You may be reading but your comprehension level is pretty low. Ask yourself why 18" degree wheels are used by racers? If you don't know the answer, then re read this thread till you get it. It has been posted more than once.

              Comment


                #52
                Dredging up an almost seven year old thread just to berate a point someone made.

                Wow, simply wow.
                De-stinking Penelope http://thegsresources.com/_forum/sho...d.php?t=179245

                http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum...35#post1625535

                Comment


                  #53
                  Originally posted by rustybronco View Post
                  Dredging up an almost seven year old thread just to berate a point someone made.

                  Wow, simply wow.
                  Rusty,
                  The referenced post by Ray reinforces the point of the thread, despite his own denigrating postings in this thread. If the truth is derogatory towards Ray then that is not my fault. There are people interested in cams and degreeing of same which is why I researched this thread.

                  You might also consider where this thread is posted and the fact that it was started in 2009 is kind of irrelevant to the discussion. It is a sticky for a reason, and complementing the information rather than detracting from it would probably be more in line with forum policies don't you think?
                  Forum: Popular Technical Info

                  Comment


                    #54
                    Lets all just argue about it, that will help. And my comprehension is just fine, thank you.
                    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...tatesMap-1.jpg

                    Life is too short to ride an L.

                    Comment


                      #55
                      Originally posted by stetracer View Post
                      Varying Lobe Separation Angle
                      Tighten Widen
                      Moves Torque to Lower RPM Raise Torque to Higher RPM
                      Increases Maximum Torque Reduces Maximum Torque
                      Narrow Powerband Broadens Power Band
                      Builds Higher Cylinder Pressure Reduce Maximum Cylinder Pressure
                      Increase Chance of Engine Knock Decrease Chance of Engine Knock
                      Increase Cranking Compression Decrease Cranking Compression
                      Increase Efective Compression Decrease Efective Compression
                      Idle Vacuum is Reduced Idle Vacuum is Increased
                      Idle Quality Suffers Idle Quality Improves
                      Open Valve-Overlap Increases Open Valve-Overlap Decreases
                      Closed Valve-Overlap Increases Closed Valve-Overlap Decreases
                      Natural EGR Efect Increases Natural EGR Efect is Reduced
                      Decreases Piston-to-Valve Clerance Increases Piston-to-Valve Clerance


                      Lobe Separation Angle
                      Above 114 Deg. = Extremely Wide
                      114-112 Deg. = Wide
                      112-110 Deg. = Moderately Wide
                      110-108 Deg. = Moderate
                      108-106 Deg. = Moderately Tight
                      106-104 Deg. = Tight
                      Below 104 Deg. = Extremely Tight

                      Advancing/Retarding Cam Timing
                      Advancing Retarding
                      Begins Intake Event Sooner Delays Intake Event Closes Intake
                      Open Intake Valve Sooner Keeps Intake Valve Open Later
                      Builds More Low-End Torque Builds More High-End Power
                      Decrease Piston-Intake Valve Clerance Increase Piston-Intake Valve Clerance
                      Increase Piston-Exhaust Valve Clerance Decrease Piston-Exhaust Valve Clerance
                      Just thought this might help some understand what moving the lobe centers around does

                      Very helpful, thanks.
                      http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...tatesMap-1.jpg

                      Life is too short to ride an L.

                      Comment


                        #56
                        The difference is so minuscule that it doesn't really matter in the real world. A coat hanger wire with a point ground on it, or a dulled razor blade. Not a penny's worth of difference between the two, much less pages and pages of debating/arguing about it.

                        Sheesh!

                        Comment


                          #57
                          Originally posted by tkent02 View Post
                          Lets all just argue about it, that will help. And my comprehension is just fine, thank you.

                          feel free to report back you findings after you have degreed your cams using using an 9" degree wheel with a piece of close hanger.

                          Comment


                            #58
                            Don't believe I ever mentioned I was going to do that.
                            http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...tatesMap-1.jpg

                            Life is too short to ride an L.

                            Comment


                              #59
                              If I said you can degree a set of cams as accurately with an 9" degree wheel using the razor as you can with an 18" wheel using a piece of wire would you believe that?

                              Of course then the subject leads to why do I need to degree a a cam with 9" or 18" degree wheel at all? To which I say is not the subject. But if you don't care , can't tell or don't know, then you are wasting your time degreeing cams in the first place.

                              Is that plain enough?

                              Comment


                                #60
                                No, explain it again please? My comprehension is not very good.
                                http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...tatesMap-1.jpg

                                Life is too short to ride an L.

                                Comment

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