LED Flasher Unit & Auto Cancelling

[Matchless]

Yes you are correct, the 1979 GS's used a different self cancelling unit than the 1980 and upwards. The 1979 used a 2 pin flasher relay and thereafter a 3 pin unit was used with a 3rd "cancelling" pin.
Only the 1980 and onwards GS's lose the self cancelling function if a non OEM flasher relay is used.

Apologies if I unintentionally miffed you!

[korrg]

Yes you are correct, the 1979 GS's used a different self cancelling unit than the 1980 and upwards. The 1979 used a 2 pin flasher relay and thereafter a 3 pin unit was used with a 3rd "cancelling" pin.
Only the 1980 and onwards GS's lose the self cancelling function if a non OEM flasher relay is used.

Apologies if I unintentionally miffed you!

interesting as my '81 650L has (had) a 2 pin unit

[willie]

The problem in using LED lights is not that they are LED but simply that they fail to provide sufficient load for many flashers to function. Adding a shunt load to the LED light simply provides sufficient load that the circuit loads the flasher sufficiently for it to function as designed. There are other ways to accomplish this task but the shunt is, crude but simple.
..

I don't mean to annoy anyone, especially you, Norm, but could you elaborate a little on the other ways you speak of?
Thanks again,
Willie

[Normk]

Willie, I believe that it is better to express one's impression or feelings regarding a post than to assume as it provides the opportunity for clarification. Clarification usually removes the concern, or at least gets the conflict into the open.

The shunt simply loads the circuit in the same fashion as do the original incandescent bulbs, such that the flasher is able to function. Other ways to accomplish flashing of light loads such as LEDs which I recall using:
1) Aftermarket flasher units are made expressly for LED and other light loads.
2) Connecting the flasher to ground by way of a resistor or diode string to cause the flasher to operate and using a normally closed relay shunted across the flasher. Causes the LEDs to flash in reverse to the flasher but is reliable. The third/indicator terminal of some flashers works well for this purpose.
3) Use of a flasher bulb to control the relay coil as these are both available in lower voltages which can be combined with a resistor. I used one from a flash light to make the warning light on a boat house flash when the temperature dropped too low.

Lots of ways to do this. Someone suggested using an electronic timer/flasher from Mouser or one of those suppiers for this purpose on one of the KLR groups. I like to use a simple relay combination although the electronics gurus will often cob together a circuit. Personally, I think they only do it to make we dinosaurs feel even more inferior but if that's the reason, it works.

On another, related, subject, has anyone bridged the R&L signal light leads in order to achieve 4-way flashers? I always get around to this modification but am a bit concerned about doubling the signal light load into that controller.

As everyone will know, there are two common means of achieving 4-way flasher operation. The most simple is to connect a switch between the right & left signal bulb leads. Activate the turn signals in either direction and close the switch so that both side turn signals are powered from the side which is activated. Simple and works efficiently. I use it frequently on my ST1100 when moving slowly in traffic as in a construction zone.

Another means is that which is used by automobile manufacturers who wish to make the 4-ways active when the ignition is off. They often have a much more complex signal switch which allows the brake lights and rear signals to share the same bulb filaments. In even the simpler systems which use separate brake and turn indicators, the 4-way system is powered separately through its own switch and flasher. I don't bother with that system on a bike because, IMO, the battery capacity is insufficient to allow the 4-ways to endure. If one wished to have a 4-way system which could operated for 1/2 hour or longer, sufficient time to repair a tire for example, LED's or HID strobes would need to be considered. I have an LED light bar transversely mounted under the luggage rack on the top of my ST1100's Givi trunk which uses a two wire flat connector to connect to the bike's harness. This allows the LED bar to be connected to the always powered battery charging plug stored behind the rear side cover. The same plug is also power for pillion heated vesta as this will not remain connected to drain the battery.

An acquaintance connected a relay to flash the opposite side signals but managed to wire it so that the lights alternated side to side. He received official attention almost the first time used, and brought it by for help. I proposed that we simply install one red and one blue lenses onto his front signals but he was not amused.

I'm not a fan of LED's as turn signals, indicators or brake lights unless their performance is at least equal to incandescent which is seldom the case. The practical issue is that the lighting enclosures and lenses are a problem. There are many excellent purpose designed LED lights on the market but few original lighting units perform well with an LED.
I think the answer is usually to replace the complete light but that is an issue with a collector bike.

I don't mean to annoy anyone, especially you, Norm, but could you elaborate a little on the other ways you speak of?
Thanks again,
Willie

[Normk]

I haven't consulted a later (3 pin flasher) wiring diagram so hoping you can provide an easy answer as to what is the role of the third pin in cancellation?

Is that pin used to power or ground a normally closed contact in order to open the circuit at the flasher? If so it should be straight forward to include a relay into the circuit in order to use a standard flasher.

I've nearly mastered the wiring for the ST1100 ABS/TCS so maybe the GS is the next challenge?

We used to have some fun explaining those circuits: http://www.my-mc.com/messages/1/138865.html#POST207996

I think one could wire 3 or 4 GS850G's out of one ST1100 wiring harness, or maybe 10?

Yes you are correct, the 1979 GS's used a different self cancelling unit than the 1980 and upwards. The 1979 used a 2 pin flasher relay and thereafter a 3 pin unit was used with a 3rd "cancelling" pin.
Only the 1980 and onwards GS's lose the self cancelling function if a non OEM flasher relay is used.

Apologies if I unintentionally miffed you!

[Matchless]

I haven't consulted a later (3 pin flasher) wiring diagram so hoping you can provide an easy answer as to what is the role of the third pin in cancellation?

Is that pin used to power or ground a normally closed contact in order to open the circuit at the flasher? If so it should be straight forward to include a relay into the circuit in order to use a standard flasher.

The 3rd pin goes to a "holding" coil of the dual coil flasher relay. When the self cancelling unit times out it keeps the flasher relay operated until the flasher switch is reset or switched off.
The handlebar turn signal switch is quite complex on the 1980 GS's and has 5 positions for the flasher control and also switches the high and low headlight beams and is an special integral part of the self cancelling unit (TSCU)

[Normk]

What are the "5" positions?

Interesting to try to develop some adaptations.

[rustybronco]

Left 'auto cancel trigger*' - left turn signal - off - right turn signal - right 'auto cancel trigger*'
(momentary contact - on - off - on - momentary contact)

*my terminology.

[Steve]

What are the "5" positions?

Going from left to right:
1 - will start the flashing cycle for LEFT turn and is spring-loaded to return to position 2
2 - will hold the LEFT turn signal for the duration of the timing cycle
3 - will cancel either LEFT or RIGHT signal before the automatic cycle
4 - will hold the RIGHT turn signal for the duration of the timing cycle
5 - will start the flashing cycle for RIGHT turn and is spring-loaded to return to postion 4

It surprises a few newcomers to these bikes if the last turn they did was to the LEFT and they now start one to the RIGHT. They have to move the button past postions 3 and 4, bump it into #5, then release it so it can go back to #4.

Electrically, positions 1 and 5 will start the auto-cancel timing circuit. Positions 2 and 4 merely tell the intermittent power which way to go (left or right) and position 3 will cancel it if you want to end it early.

.

[Normk]

Now that I read the post the signal switch configuration sounds familiar so must have ridden some bikes with this type of switch configuration.

These are the kinds of things which makes one want to open a hunting season for engineers.

Good grief, Aunt Bertie! Why ever would they need to become so complex when the earlier system worked the same?

One could arrange an normally closed relay to supply power and switch that open with the cancel position. Then trigger either side by means of a latching relay which would be cancelled by the normally closed supply one was opened by the cancel. One issue there would be that one might have both sides flashing if the cancel position were not selected before the transition but this could be handled by a strategy such as connecting each side through the normally closed contacts of the other side's latching relay. No need to become complicated by electronics to do this but adding the timer would be more challenging.

Given that the automatic cancellation is more of a talking feature than necessary, I would go the above route before investing in an OEM controller. It should be easy enough to include a timer if one wished.

Enough time in future to dope this out if someone actually needs the solution. Easier if a bike is at hand as a test mule for the later system.

The earlier (1979) one on my GS850 would use the same basic solution with or without the timer if the time comes.

I'm even more interested in getting my hands on a later bike to see what purpose is served by the third tap on the signal flasher.

If someone has basic meters and test light we should be able to work this out by remote. The solution would add light, so to speak, on the question of using LED lights on the later self cancel signal system.

[rustybronco]

The earlier (1979) one on my GS850 would use the same basic solution with or without the timer if the time comes.

I haven't checked the switch connections in the service manual, so this is a preliminary drawing.

note*** not fail safe, just a simple solution to start with. I'll work out the details a bit more as I find the time.

***edit*** left turn switch> Black... Right turn switch> Light Green/ Black... Orange common to both switches... cancel> Brown/Yellow

[Normk]

Fun to play with these circuits although I do admit that trying to get the system to work with some MOSFETs from my junk box brought my Tourette's into action.

The GS started to give some problems again so ordered some relays as my parts supply is low. I will confirm that my wiring works properly and then report with diagram and colors for wires.

The LED panels as always on in the front signals are working well. They are powered from the Orange wire in the headlight shell as it has an open bullet connector. I made a couple of adapters from bulb bases to connect the LED negative lead to the turn signal line in the original bulb socket and ran a 28 gauge length of Teflon insulated hook-up wire out through the signal stalk for power.

These operate on with the key because the LED units ground through the signal light circuit, through the dash indicator and rear signal bulbs. When the signal circuit is on (indicating) the front LED goes off which provides signal function. Low power consumption, more visible than the original bulb when flashing and the always on makes the bike more visible.

I haven't checked the switch connections in the service manual, so this is a preliminary drawing.

note*** not fail safe, just a simple solution to start with. I'll work out the details a bit more as I find the time.

***edit*** left turn switch> Black... Right turn switch> Light Green/ Black... Orange common to both switches... cancel> Brown/Yellow

[rustybronco]

Andre, I just though I'd give you an update on the electronic flasher you were kind enough to send me a few years ago. The flasher on my '80 850 decided to go belly up this past Saturday on my way to work. When I got home this evening I was prepared to wire in a 2 pin flasher in order to get my turn signals up and running when I remembered you had sent me one or your prototypes.

Just had to say thank you once again, it worked wonderfully!

[Matchless]

Andre, I just though I'd give you an update on the electronic flasher you were kind enough to send me a few years ago. The flasher on my '80 850 decided to go belly up this past Saturday on my way to work. When I got home this evening I was prepared to wire in a 2 pin flasher in order to get my turn signals up and running when I remembered you had sent me one or your prototypes.

Just had to say thank you once again, it worked wonderfully!

Dale,
I have just about forgotten about doing those at the time! Glad it is of some use. I finally settled for the Toyota type and modified a few of those as they are quite robust and work well with incandescent bulbs as well.
Keep well.

[posplayr]

I have done a search on LED and Auto Cancel and found four related threads but don't seem to be able to find a simple answer to an LED upgrade solution that retains auto cancel.

If it is a solution, Andre's (Matchless) link in the first post to this thread is invalid.

I'm looking to a solution to the following:

• I have an 1983 GS1100ED , my Auto cancel works and I want to retain it.
  
• I have the 5 wire left hand auto cancel with the OEM three pronged flasher.
  
• I want to change all signal/dash lights from incandescent to LED (I know my lamp warning lights will still be an issue but that is separate from this question)
  
• I don't want shunting ballast resistors

Yes I know that LED's draw much less current than incandescent and the OEM flasher will not work; and LED compatible flasher needs to be swapped out.

Three wire LED compatible flashers seem to abound on Ebay and Amazon for example.

http://www.amazon.com/Tridon-EP34-Flasher/dp/B00064LQKS/ref=pd_sim_sbs_auto_5?ie=UTF8&refRID=192GTSWPQB5RHRXYGNGJ

This has the same pin out as the OEM (almost):

• B is for +12V (i.e. Battery)
• L is for Load (i.e. the turn signals)
• E or C is for Earth or Common (i.e. a ground)

but on the OEM flasher:

• C is for CANCEL

So the question is:

Is this same LED compatible flasher going to work with 5 wire auto cancel or is there a work around to modify it or buy/make something else?

Note: In order to work the LED flasher would have to respond to the +12V on it's common pin by cancelling the flash and remaining off despite having +12V applied to the B line.