For those that advocate using 87 octane in these bikes

[reliant_turbo]

ive heard a ping or two from my bike with 87 in the tank when the engine temps rise and i crack the throttle after cruising through town.

im sure 80's and 90's non ethanol 87 was fine for our bikes. newer ethanol gas gives my turbo cars fits too.

Brian

[UncleMike]

Gassing up your vehicle shouldn't be a mystery to be solved.

[tkent02]

ive heard a ping or two from my bike with 87 in the tank when the engine temps rise and i crack the throttle after cruising through town.

You could always downshift.

[yasser]

.10 / gal more for ethanol free 87 in Iowa - in other words 89 is less expensive, I just wont put in in the gas tank of old bikes or in the boat.

[themess]

I disagree with this statement. and I'd like to add my opinion to low octane gas.

most of us do not purchase and store our gasoline in a science lab vacuum.

ANY alcohol exposed to air --- ethanol methanol whatever!, evaporates and is hydroscopic . Varnish and water concentrate in the tank after just a few days with American ethanol infused gasoline. -and- I mean the one at the gas station not just your bike.

87 or cheap gas is purchased more often by everybody and is more than likely it is fresher than that so called hi-test that has been sitting in the ground for 2 weeks.

so buy what you like, but what I am saying is when it comes to gasohol .... fresher is better.. it has the shelf life of a loaf of bread on the counter.

Science labs tell more about the properties of ethanol and hydrocarbon consituents of gasoline than you might imagine.

If ethanol is poured into an open bowl in a room with appreciable humitidy in the air, the ethanol will immediately begin to evaporate, and water from the air will be absorbed by the ethanol. The water concentration will increase continually, eventually, all the ethanol will evaporate, along with the water that was absorbed.

Motorcycle gas tanks are not open bowls. Fuel systems are mostly sealed, but are vented to the atmosphere, as they must be for gravity and engine vacuum to pull gas into the engines. That vent is small. Very little ethanol or gasoline is lost to evaporation. If the motorcycle is in a garage at constant temperature, evaporation rate will be very low. There isn't any particular reason for the vapor molecules in the vent to exchange places with air molecules in the garage.

However, if temperature changes the contents of the gas tank will expand, forcing some vapor above the gas out of the vent. As gasoline cools and contracts, some air comes into the vent. The air that comes into the tank through the vent is not saturated with gas or ethanol, and contains water. The water can dissolve in the ethanol portion of the gasoline, and ethanol and gasoline will evaporate into and saturate the air above the gas.

If the temperature changes are large and frequent, considerable evaporation can occur, and considerable water can be absorbed. Two ways to reduce this. (1) Keep the bike in a garage, reducing daily temperature swings. This helps even in an unheated garage. (2) Fill the gas tank nearly to the top. With almost no air space, there is less volume to exchange relative to the volume of the gasoline.

In 15 years of GS winter storage, I never added any gasoline stabilizer and never had a hint of problem with water in the tank or with carburetion. Those are winters in Iowa, Illinois, Ohio and Indiana. And I don't think that I've ever gassed up a motorcycle with ethanol free gasoline.

[themess]

If you are talking about a GS engine, they don't care about lead or lack of lead at all. I guess Suzuki knew the future was coming and planned ahead. ....

Many of us remember the lead days. EPA regulations banning lead in gasoline were announced years in advance, to give manufacturers time to adapt. If I recall correctly, eliminating lead was done to keep lead from poisoning the catalysts in the new catalytic converters. To prevent leaded fuel from being pumped into cars with converters, the size of the opening for the delivery nozzle was reduced so that nozzles for leaded gas would not fit.

Lead was eventually eliminated for the additional reason that lead in the air had been a nation wide poison. Studies showed that children who lived in areas with high concentrations of lead in the air (near and surrounded by heavily travelled roads) had higher amounts of lead in their bodies and lower IQs.

[Steve]

No, I've ridden a few that pinged even wound out with light throttle, just constant pinging, for years and years. As soon as it warms up it starts pinging. I wanted to take one apart to see what's going on inside, the owner didn't want to as it is still running. I guess they really are stout engines.

Do you think that it might have been the fins ringing, not ignition "pinging"?

Many of us remove those rubber dampers in the fins, that might be why they are there.

.

[trippivot]

Science labs tell more about the properties of ethanol and hydrocarbon consituents of gasoline than you might imagine.

OK I'm game to break this down. I know a thing about hydrocarbons and the petrochemical industry. but let's talk about 87 octane gasohol

If ethanol is poured into an open bowl in a room with appreciable humitidy in the air, the ethanol will immediately begin to evaporate, and water from the air will be absorbed by the ethanol. The water concentration will increase continually, eventually, all the ethanol will evaporate, along with the water that was absorbed.

#1 What about the other properties of gasoline besides alcohol-- where do they go? ( possibly varnish build up in the pilot jets)

#2 How does the water that has separated from the gasohol re absorb into the air? or the gas? , because it collects under the gasoline in the bottom of the tank separated by a chemical fluid barrier.


Motorcycle gas tanks are not open bowls. No they are more like terrariums

Fuel systems are mostly sealed, in CA with evaporative emissions but are vented to the atmosphere, thru an activated charcoal element as they must be for gravity and engine vacuum to pull gas into the engines.

That vent is small. that little vent lows an equal amount in volume as gasoline flows into the engine .... That little hole does a lot of atmosphere free flowin' inwards and outwards.

Very little ethanol or gasoline is lost to evaporation. I bet almost 20% is lost over a 6MO period - whatever the state mandated level is - it's gone in weeks.

If the motorcycle is in a garage at constant temperature, evaporation rate will be very low. There isn't any particular reason for the vapor molecules in the vent to exchange places with air molecules in the garage.

However, if temperature changes the contents of the gas tank will expand, forcing some vapor above the gas out of the vent. As gasoline cools and contracts, some air comes into the vent. The air that comes into the tank through the vent is not saturated with gas or ethanol, and contains water. The water can dissolve in the ethanol portion of the gasoline, and ethanol and gasoline will evaporate into and saturate the air above the gas. like I said a terrarium

If the temperature changes are large and frequent, considerable evaporation can occur, and considerable water can be absorbed. Two ways to reduce this. (1) Keep the bike in a garage, reducing daily temperature swings. This helps even in an unheated garage. (2) Fill the gas tank nearly to the top. With almost no air space, there is less volume to exchange relative to the volume of the gasoline.

In 15 years of GS winter storage, I never added any gasoline stabilizer and never had a hint of problem with water in the tank or with carburetion. Those are winters in Iowa, Illinois, Ohio and Indiana. And I don't think that I've ever gassed up a motorcycle with ethanol free gasoline.

you must live in theory-land. I am here in the real world telling you your narrative is not accurate to how it applies to 87 octane gasoline and GS motorcycles.

nowadays I am a mechanic at a profitable bike shop and I see hunting ATVs' and snowmobiles that are used once a year , daily driven street bikes , dirt bikes, generators, scooters RC cars etc...-- if it burns gasoline I know something about every detail and material it takes to create-operate-maintain-

never used stabilizer?? -ok start your bike every 2 weeks and keep the tank topped up. -yeah me too BUT did you really use the word NEVER?!? how old are you ?


I use 110 octane leaded gasoline for storage -- NOTHING evaporates . nothing plugs up. I can Swear by it !! just started a bike that has sat for 6 years -- new battery ZOOM!

yep the shop is slow so I have time to waste...

[sharpy]

All i know is mine pings like crazy if i dont use the good fuel with some race fuel added. Then again it not built for stupid city traffic

[tkent02]

Do you think that it might have been the fins ringing, not ignition "pinging"?

Many of us remove those rubber dampers in the fins, that might be why they are there.

.

Come on, man! Give me a little credit, I've done this once or twice!

[JEEPRUSTY]

Many of us remember the lead days. EPA regulations banning lead in gasoline were announced years in advance, to give manufacturers time to adapt. If I recall correctly, eliminating lead was done to keep lead from poisoning the catalysts in the new catalytic converters. To prevent leaded fuel from being pumped into cars with converters, the size of the opening for the delivery nozzle was reduced so that nozzles for leaded gas would not fit.

Lead was eventually eliminated for the additional reason that lead in the air had been a nation wide poison. Studies showed that children who lived in areas with high concentrations of lead in the air (near and surrounded by heavily travelled roads) had higher amounts of lead in their bodies and lower IQs.

I am not sure where I read or heard it but lead in gasoline had dispersed to every part of the planet.
It would seem that nothing on earth is now lead free although the amount of lead is slight.

[koolaid_kid]

My GS always pinged on 87 Octane. A real pain when riding in the boonies where the only grade available is 87. On 91 it was better, but stopped completely on 93. And it was 100% stock.

[themess]

I am not sure where I read or heard it but lead in gasoline had dispersed to every part of the planet. It would seem that nothing on earth is now lead free although the amount of lead is slight.

That is correct, as far as it goes. But atmospheric lead concentration is highest where lead enters the atmosphere. Most of that was from gasoline combustion.

you must live in theory-land. I am here in the real world telling you your narrative is not accurate to how it applies to 87 octane gasoline and GS motorcycles. ...

never used stabilizer?? -ok start your bike every 2 weeks and keep the tank topped up. -yeah me too BUT did you really use the word NEVER?!? how old are you ?

I use 110 octane leaded gasoline for storage -- NOTHING evaporates . nothing plugs up. I can Swear by it !! just started a bike that has sat for 6 years -- new battery ZOOM! ...

I live in both "theory land" and in the real world.

I know a tiny bit about gasoline forumation from technical presentations on formulating fuel system polymer (rubber and plastic) components so that they will not be adversely affected by gasoline.

Gasoline formulation changes from region to region and from season to season. Changes include adding oxygenates to reduce ozone formation, and changing the volatility of the mixture to compensate for changes in temperature, which changes evaporation rate. Ethanol is both an oxygenate and an octane increasing chemical.

That you started a bike that sat for six years shows that the hydrocarbon parts of gasoline (90% of E-10) doesn't deteriorate quickly. I have no reason to suspect that gasoline formulated for use with ethanol would form varnish faster than gasoline formulated for use with tetraethyl lead. And your six year old gasoline wasn't formulated for use with tetraethyl lead. It might have been formulated for use with MEK, since its use was eliminated in the last decade or so.

And ethanol itself is stable for centuries.

Varnish could form from evaportion of volatiles, leaving behind something carried by the volatiles. It would also form from oxidation of components of gasoline. Limiting exposure to oxygen would keep that low.

I never had a problem with starting 2 and 4 stroke Suzukis over 20 years of Midwestern winters. The bikes were stored in unheated garages. I did not always top them off in the fall. Start them up every two to six weeks, let them warm up enough that no choke was needed, and shut them off. And I've never used stabilizer.

My 24 year old Lawnboy's carburetor does need a good cleaning though. Probably due to dust from mulching leaves with it, instead of gasoline.

I'm 62.

[trippivot]

I'd choose 85 all gas over 87 alcohol/gas mix if you can find it

very well written Mr. themess I understand most of it .. I too am old enough to have pumped leaded gas into the daily driver ... I also remember having to replace valves and valve guides to run the new federally mandated inferior fuel in old engines.. lead is a lubricant as I know. but stainless / hardened valves don't need it. better metals. molded rubber seals, slicker oil, technology moves us along ok I got on board of unleaded train -- good stuff. do a lot with it.. alcohol fuel not so much.

I'm not really a fan of additive this and additive that "snake oil" products .. Startron seem to help, and sea foam keeps me busy.

we get different seasonal gasoline blends here on the Michigan lake shore counties of WI. I cannot tell you the actual difference BUT The stuff causes older pod/jet kit bike problems if they run 100% pump gas. like re-tune in the spring and again in the fall. FI bikes seem to be lesser effected .until they sit.. and I don't mean 2~3 months. I mean maybe 4 weeks we sell a lot of startron and sunnoco 110 purple- because that is what is working for our customers.

Sunnoco 110 purple / sunnoco 112 light blue both are excellent for mixing to 50% with your pump gas. jet it right and the carbon in the exhaust pipe will turn white. fully burned fuel leaves less by-products right?

My 2nd "real" bike pinged real bad koolaid kid. And I learned a lot from that bike but the deal was I found I had was a tuning issue and carbon build up issue. too cold of a plug and too rich was my deal... but too much timing advance does it too.

[gmansyz]

Function?
Just a result of leaness, and heat and when gasoline is replaced with alcohol, it is running lean. Then, if it is sucking up some water from the bottom of the bowl, it is lean again. Though then, it becomes like water injection which should suppress the detonation some. But if you have carbon buildup in the chamber, that could be a problem. Then, after all this, check the advance on you ignition, retarding will help some. But if you have too much initial compression, even retarding will not help. And the advance curve? If you slow it down, this could help. And oil control. If any oil is getting in the chamber, you are effectively reducing the octane rating of the fuel.
There are many factors!!!
But think that the biggest problem is just head. And then chamber shape. 4 valvers are a bit better than the 2- valvers. You all know that the new 600's are just over 13:1 and run fine on 91 octane? Heat control.
How many have rejetted the stock carbs and actually gone through the engine properly? Like an engine blueprint? Then, you may not have trouble with pinging.
Laters
G