NEW Front tire - weird damage, safety issue?

[themess]

It is a manufacturing defect.

The tire was built without enough sidewall rubber. The glossy appearance came because the rubber was exposed to air, not to the mold during curing. The rubber sort of melted, and doesn't have the very slight surface roughness that the mold leaves.

A "green", uncured bias ply tire is cylindrical in shape.

> Beads are at the top and bottom.

> Rubber covered body ply fabric is the heart of the tire. It wraps around both beads. You don't see any of that.

> The inside of the tires is covered with a thin layer of rubber called innerliner. The rubber compound has very low permeability to air. Tires that require tubes have a different type of rubber in a thin layer.

> The tread, sidewall and pieces that protect the bead are extruded, with cross-sections needed to put rubber in the right areas.

> Tread is in the center. It is typically thickest at the shoulder, but not by much on tires with very rounded profiles.

> Bead protection, both extruded rubber, and fabric-reinforced rubber, are near the beads.

> Sidewall rubber goes between the tread and bead rubber parts, and overlaps them.

This defect came from a sidewall piece that was too thin, or that was torn at where sidewall rubber is supposed to overlap bead rubber.

Sidewall rubber has almost nothing to do with air retention.

The main function of sidewall rubber is to protect the body ply cords from abrasion and cutting. It also plays a small role in determining sidewall thickness. It contains antiozonants and antioxidants that body ply rubber does not. The body ply rubber underneath the sidewall with therefore age and crack prematurely. However, lacking physical damage, the tire might be strong enough for normal use.

The tire should have failed even cursory inspection in the factory, and the installers should not have installed it.

Demand that it be replaced with a new tire, and that the supplier also pay for the dismounting of the old tire and installation of the new tire. And don't use that installer again.

(I used to fix problems like this for a living, in several tire factories.)

[themess]

Also, the rubber components of the tire don't bond together securely unless there is sufficient pressure during curing. There wasn't enough pressure at the spot without enough rubber. It may be possible to pull a bit of the sidewall away from the body ply, using pliers. It should be impossible in a properly made tire.

It is also possible that the body plies are not tightly bonded at that spot, or that the innerliner is not bonded to the innermost body ply. Innerlines is very thin, and is inherently weak structurally. It flows very poorly during curing. Adjacent to the sidewall defect, on the innerliner surface, there could be a corresonding innerliner defect, caused by the sidewall defect. That could conceivably be the reason for air loss, although other causes are more likely.

[exzachtly1]

Also, the rubber components of the tire don't bond together securely unless there is sufficient pressure during curing. There wasn't enough pressure at the spot without enough rubber. It may be possible to pull a bit of the sidewall away from the body ply, using pliers. It should be impossible in a properly made tire.

It is also possible that the body plies are not tightly bonded at that spot, or that the innerliner is not bonded to the innermost body ply. Innerlines is very thin, and is inherently weak structurally. It flows very poorly during curing. Adjacent to the sidewall defect, on the innerliner surface, there could be a corresonding innerliner defect, caused by the sidewall defect. That could conceivably be the reason for air loss, although other causes are more likely.

Wow! Thanks for all the great information - that's really insightful and helpful. I'm going to be calling the vendor sometime today to try to get this sorted out. I think I have more than enough ammunition now between the comments from the tire manufacturer and the installer, plus pictures. I'll post back when it's all resolved.

[exzachtly1]

Seems like MC-superstore is willing to do a refund for me, but they are asking me to take pics showing proof that the tire is destroyed... which is very strange to me...

Zach,

You would need to destroy the tire. Usually what you need to do is cut the tire in half or shove a screw driver into the tire to prove that its destroyed.

If you can send us pictures of that then we can refund you for that tire.



Sincerely,
Maria Rodriguez | Customer Service Representative | Motorcycle Superstore, Inc.
1555 E. McAndrews Rd Suite 200 | Medford, OR 97504 | Phone: 877-668-6872
Email: superstore@motorcycle-superstore.com | Fax: 541-227-0046

I don't think I want to do that, nor do I really understand the point...

[GSequoia]

I don't think I want to do that, nor do I really understand the point...

The manufacture will reimburse them for irreparable defective goods on the grounds that they destroy them (so they can't pull any fast ones with warranty claims), they're just cutting out the step of having to pay more to ship it.

[loud et]

They do not want it back as they cannot resell it. They need proof you cannot use it and that you are not trying to cheat them and get a free tire.
My evil side want to rig up a fake photo with this big screwdriver I have that is broken in half so it looks like the tire is peirced, (like the arrow through the head gag) and you can keep the tire,but honestly you are not going to use this tire and its not right to sell it or give it to someone as it COULD be dangerous.
The tire would probably be fine to use, but save yourself the anguish and stab a few screwdrivers through the tire and have them send you a new one.
Bring your wheel up and we will unmount it, stab it , take pics and you will have a new tire in a few days. Forget that tire, its used up too much of your time already.

[exzachtly1]

They do not want it back as they cannot resell it. They need proof you cannot use it and that you are not trying to cheat them and get a free tire.
My evil side want to rig up a fake photo with this big screwdriver I have that is broken in half so it looks like the tire is peirced, (like the arrow through the head gag) and you can keep the tire,but honestly you are not going to use this tire and its not right to sell it or give it to someone as it COULD be dangerous.
The tire would probably be fine to use, but save yourself the anguish and stab a few screwdrivers through the tire and have them send you a new one.
Bring your wheel up and we will unmount it, stab it , take pics and you will have a new tire in a few days. Forget that tire, its used up too much of your time already.

Gotcha, yeah I think I might order the new one first then I may just take you up on that offer. The only thing I'm not sure about for a DIY mounting is where to get the weights for balancing, should I just order some online when I get the tire?

[loud et]

Gotcha, yeah I think I might order the new one first then I may just take you up on that offer. The only thing I'm not sure about for a DIY mounting is where to get the weights for balancing, should I just order some online when I get the tire?

Yeah, get some of the segmented stick on ones. I need some too so let me know if you find any locally.

[themess]

Seems like MC-superstore is willing to do a refund for me, but they are asking me to take pics showing proof that the tire is destroyed... which is very strange to me...

I don't think I want to do that, nor do I really understand the point...

The two reasons to document that the tire has been destroyed:

1) Prove that you aren't merely trying to get a second tire, free.

2) Release them from liability. This point needs expansion.

They aren't agreeing to replace the tire for a cosmetic issue, but because the tire might be dangerous. If the tire is dangerous, the manufacturer has a legal obligation to insure that it cannot ever be used on a motorcycle. Not by you, not by anyone.

The points of law get a bit strange for non-lawyers, and the easy summary is that tire companies know that if a tire can be mounted on a wheel and hold air, someone will try to use it, and someone will try to sell it, and someone else can be hurt or killed. Because the manufacturer knows this, the manufacturer must take reasonable actions to prevent it.

During the years that I worked at Firestone, industry practices for scrap tires changed. When I started, scrap tires went to appropriate landfills. People raided landfills and sold the tires. So the beads on scrap tires were cut (bandsaw) before the landfill. Raiders welded the beads together, slapped some black goo over the repair, and sold the tires. So factories started cutting beads completely out of the tires. I don't know if it ended the problem. They experimented with grinding whole tires. Chunks with metal (beads, steel plies) would be used to recycle the metal. The rest was tried as additives to tread rubber and asphalt. Where is is now, I don't know.

Motorcycle Super Store's response is appropriate and timely. They have a good reputation that they want to protect. They won't endanger their reputation by not sending you the replacement tire. Asking you to document that the tire has been destroyed is cheaper for you and them, than sending the tire back for them to destroy. Don't mess around with a screwdriver trick. It can be detected, and if so, you won't get your replacement.

+++++++++++++

Stick-on wheel weights can be bought from many places, including all the motorcycle superstores, Z1, many local dealers, and Harbor Freight. Many people in this forum swear by balancing beads. Even if the beads aren't perfect, they must work well enough for most circumstances.

I am a neophyte at mounting tires. When I had trouble, I went to a well-recommended shop that works mostly on Harleys. (Not a dealership). The owner has been doing it for 20+ years and has top-notch equipment. Many of his customers spend over a thousand dollars for individual rime, so he has to excel at keeping them in perfect condition to gawk at. I think that he charged $15 or $20 to mount and balance, and he balanced carefully.

[rustybronco]

For us as a dealership, what's usually required to destroy a tire has been to drill a 1" diameter hole on the sidewall of the tire. A 1" hole saw chucked into a drill will make short work of it.

[exzachtly1]

Got it! Makes a lot of sense and I have been very happy with MC-superstore's customer service. Thanks for the info, I love this forum and you guys rock.

Yeah, get some of the segmented stick on ones. I need some too so let me know if you find any locally.

I just placed an order for the new tire + some stick on balancing weights. When they arrive I'd be happy to come up, do the install, and give you as many of the weights as you need as thanks!

18 ounces card contains 6 strips with 12 segments per strip (72 total segments)

Yep - I think I'll have enough for you

[loud et]

quote:
Yep - I think I'll have enough for you
...Thanks Zach.

Good info again from the Mess...thx

One question I have about these Shinko 230's, (as I have a set here waiting to mount myself) is they have the red dot on them.

Is it:
yellow dot= light spot=line up with valve stem.....and
red dot =heavy spot= line up opposite valve stem?

[GSequoia]

Did you get the weights from MC Superstore? I'll need to get some as well, I got lucky last time I did a tire on the KLR and had enough clamp on spoke weights I could salvage from the odl setup.

[exzachtly1]

quote:
Yep - I think I'll have enough for you
...Thanks Zach.

Good info again from the Mess...thx

One question I have about these Shinko 230's, (as I have a set here waiting to mount myself) is they have the red dot on them.

Is it:
yellow dot= light spot=line up with valve stem.....and
red dot =heavy spot= line up opposite valve stem?

I think the yellow dot is lined up with the valve stem on mine, I can double check later at home.

Did you get the weights from MC Superstore? I'll need to get some as well, I got lucky last time I did a tire on the KLR and had enough clamp on spoke weights I could salvage from the odl setup.

I got them from here on amazon. They are sold by a few vendors but I chose "Orange Custom Cycle" for the free shipping.

Edit: wishing I'd looked at the list of sellers, ATV Unlimited is right here in OH! Oh well, Florida shouldn't take too much longer

[GSequoia]

I think the yellow dot is lined up with the valve stem on mine, I can double check later at home.



I got them from here on amazon. They are sold by a few vendors but I chose "Orange Custom Cycle" for the free shipping.

Edit: wishing I'd looked at the list of sellers, ATV Unlimited is right here in OH! Oh well, Florida shouldn't take too much longer

Drat. I should have asked this last night so I could pop it into the bicycle tires and tubes order I submitted at Amazon