Gradually gets harder to start and conks out after 8 miles ish

[ukjules]

I have a massive problem I simply cannot fix.
It may be two.problems.
- the bike after a few runs gets harder and harder to start even though the battery is fine. Cleaning the starter motor sorted it last time but again it's now struggling. Last time I just cleaned it but if thought best I'll order a new brush kit.

The following after I had cleaned the starter motor a few weeks ago - this is happening.
- on a run it simply stopped electrically on a dual carriageway . Showed battery good voltage on my usb attached device but just stopped. Stopped vehicle and tried elec ignition and dead. Waited a bit wriggled a few wires and started again bar labouring a bit due to possible starter motor issue.
So now the bike is totally unreliable I cannot be sure when it will just stop dead.

I attach a picture of the ignition side of the motorbike and can someone tell me if the wiring looks right. I can't do electrics as poor colour vision.

I am very quick with any ideas or tests you want me to do and am armed with all electrical stuff to test.

 

[ukjules]

Update :
Issue 1 (the hard to start)
This is the same as last time which when I cleaned the starter internals it worked fine. I didn't put on a new repair kit / brushes so I assume starter needs this.
(It is.not battery or solenoid or charging !!)
So I'll order a repair kit from ? Or do I just need the brushes from ?

Issue 2 bike cuts out electrically
Will while removing carbs again have a look at wiring bit think I have something wrong.
However bike just run perfectly for 7 miles and IV changed nothing

 

[Cipher]

Classic Suzuki charging system failure.
Run the charging tests in the manual.
What output AC per alternator leg at test rpm 5000 iirc

Or test starter by directly connecting to battery with both removed from bike.

The aftermarket ignition is not comforting.
At 127 euros its not likely suited to space travel.
Your reliance on a Chinesium usb volt meter is sub optimal.

 

[ukjules]

Charging is not the issue !
charging system fine.

It is:
Starter motor issue . This must be internal as when I cleaned it few weeks ago it solved it.
(I have a thread regarding this )
https://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/threads/starter-motor-dead-gs550e-1980.1787024/

but this must have temporarily sorted the brushes that.must be too worn or something.
It is not battery ,.solenoid or charging system.
I want a new starter motor but alas they don't make em anymore .. impossible to get for my bike !! - have I looked - yes for many years ! I would love to know if they.make.one in china for.mine but they don't seem to. Every other bike but not mine are in eBay.

And probably a separate issue

It cuts out intermittently for no reason.
This is my worry. I just cannot see why.
This.must be a wrong connection or loose or something.

 

[ukjules]

But I will check stator etc with all tests and report.

 

[rphillips]

Our starter-alternator guy said it was easier & quicker for him to modify brushes he had on the shelf than to try to get them for my nieces Honda 250 4 wheeler. For him it seemed no big deal... No clue about your electrical problem.

 

[Cipher]

Charging is not the issue !
charging system fine.

It is:
Starter motor issue . This must be internal as when I cleaned it few weeks ago it solved it.
(I have a thread regarding this )
https://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/threads/starter-motor-dead-gs550e-1980.1787024/

but this must have temporarily sorted the brushes that.must be too worn or something.
It is not battery ,.solenoid or charging system.
I want a new starter motor but alas they don't make em anymore .. impossible to get for my bike !! - have I looked - yes for many years ! I would love to know if they.make.one in china for.mine but they don't seem to. Every other bike but not mine are in eBay.

And probably a separate issue

It cuts out intermittently for no reason.
This is my worry. I just cannot see why.
This.must be a wrong connection or loose or something.

Sure its fine......what numbers were produced?
Your electrical wiring is 46 years old. The bodge mods look sketchy. The harness should be checked and cleaned
Any point in the wiring and switches could be corroded to the point of crumbling to verdigris powder.
There are electrical tests for the starter in the fsm. Run them have you? Number?
How are the starter bushings? Slop will cause misalignments binding and an increased load on the system.

 

[ukjules]

I may have jumped the gun regarding the overall charging system as I have some odd stats on the regulator of all things

Await update.

 

[ukjules]

Update:
- the starter motor is a separate issue. It is on the way out and I need to in some way buy a kit for it. 55£ Wemoto for a kit that gives far too much as only need brushes I think. Before it wouldn't even engage when isolated and 12v to it. A strip down and clean only fixed it for a week until now. Gets more and more sluggish when battery is fine.

Conking out on a run issue:

Battery good
On my usb voltage handlebar thing it shows 13-14v when running up from 12.8 stood.
Yes I can do the rev test later but below some static tests.
I never sighted what voltage displayed when stopped.

Stator test:
Ohms on 3 stator wires , engine off
= 1.2v
3 stator wires to earth = 1 / no reading
(Not done engine started test yet)
But this looks ok for static test....
I have on this replaced the stator a few years ago.

Regulator:
Disconnected regulator from bike / multimeter (mm) on diode test function.

Mm red lead to RR power wire / Mm black to each of 3 RR wires
= 0.14v on all 3 wires (this wrong apparently and should show ol or above 1.5v)

Black mm wire to RR red power wire / Red mm wire to to each of RR wires
= 1 open circuit (should be around 0.5/0.6v)

Black mm wire to neg RR output / Red mm wire to 3 RR wires
= 0.6v
(This should be ol or above 1.5v)

The fourth test I won't go into but it was incorrect as well and showed 1 or open circuit. Should be 0.5/6v

Now I have had regulator problems before and in my notes on paper the one I've just tested is faulty.

What's think ?
Basically it causes the bike to stop intermittently probably eight miles down the road Max. I stop I go again and it will do it again.

What's think ?
I may have an old regulator in stock I can swap out. The one I'm using also is not of the best quality but has lasted many years.

 

[oldGSfan]

Maybe a coil is overheating? Sits a bit, cools off, then runs? I had a heat-soaked coil issue recently (one dual-output coil for a 2-cylinder bike, so it was all or nothing), After a few miles it would die - acted like it was out of fuel. I had to let it sit 5 minutes, kick-start it, gun it to get some speed, then turn off the engine and coast to cool the coil. Nursed it home that way. I had a bad coil on a 4 cylinder Suzuki that I could start & ride on a cool day, but if it was warm out, it ran like garbage.

 

[ukjules]

Well possibly the coil but clearly the regulator is faulty ! I may check the coils when the tank is off but to me it is clear the regulator is faulty as step one. The readings are wrong and years ago I had similar and it was the regulator causing similar.

To do:
- swap out or / and test another regulator
- do the coil tests on both (note the bike runs perfectly until it suddenly drops elec power)
- find a repair kit for starter motor
The old starter motor part number is
3110047011 H17 (one in bike)
Cmsnl says it's superseded by
3110049500 H17
- find a old gs550 engine that fits a 1980 gs550e with a kick start

 

[ukjules]

Not even out of bed but testing my original regulator ( when I bought bike 20+ years ago). No need to waste mechanics time when laid down.

This with same bench tests I did just on suspect one on the bike gives the correct figures. It is clear the bike one must be faulty.
I think the reason I took this off years ago is it has a sense wire. I had this wired to I think rear brake wire and still have the wire taped in position.

I am on the max of my knowledge but will swap them out today and attach the sense wire and then do full charging tests.
Issue with testing is that I'll only know when bike conks out .....a nerve racking first few runs.

But first do full charging tests on current setup.

Will update.

 

[Jinks]

First thing I do on anything electrical is clean ALL the earths! Then I proceed.

 

[ukjules]

Consider that done but I won't forget that now.

Also is it time I finally bought one of those mega RR's ? Shindengen SH 775
Iv always bought cheaper normal ones.

 

[ukjules]

Ok tested both RR's off the bike. I attach findings that show the one on bike is faulty on one test.
My original with the sense wire tests fine on all tests.
I can't say that I am expert in all these tests but I know them to be true.

I will now put the one with the sense wire on and do a full test for charging. Slightly back to front but that's the way it goes when you can't understand electrics...

 

[ukjules]

A lot to report but will do so later with stats although I may put here ....
But it looks like :

- starter for sure must come out . Gets 12v to starter post and even when isolate it won't turn. Bridging the solenoid also won't make it turn. A tap however makes it turn . (It is not the magnets , I glued them in a while ago and last strip down they were fine.)
It needs to come out be cleaned and a repair kit or new brushes. Any advice on what I need in the UK would be useful.

- battery running low now will charge up.

- Regulator - the old one tested faulty. The one in stock (with sense wire) I had with a cross on it in a box tested ok but on a charge test it does not increase voltage with revs. This must be faulty too as I wouldn't have put across on the box otherwise. Very odd as tests ok but there is a cross on it for a reason I forget.

- Stator - all tests check ok
Test 1 - resistance between the three stator wires. 1.2ohms all same I think they must be between 0.5 and 2 ohms.
Test 2 - resistance to earth from all stator wires. All show l , infinite resistance

Engine running
Test 3 - ac voltage test between Stator wires
All 50v ISH when reving a bit
Test 4 - AC voltage test with wires to ground
All show 0 volts

Guys digest that and advise if I'm on wrong track ... Finishing for the day

 

[tom203]

Those stator tests just give you somehope, but aren’t as conclusive as when the stator is actually producing output. I’d guess your stator is unable to produce as it revs up (I’ve been there twice). Magnetic forces tug the wires around, looking for weak spots.. Your r/r can’t save a weak stator.

 

[ukjules]

Stator tests 3,4 are when it is producing output !! And they test ok. All within range !!
I have to take this as a ok stator. (Agree not connected up to RR when tested)
But also when revving on test 3 the voltage increases and all the same.

The regulator is faulty ! There can be no question there. A faulty regulator would cause all my issues too (ignore the starter motor issue that is separate).

I do agree though i may eat my words but I think step 1 is to get a replacement RR.
It has to be one at a time on this issue I'm sure you agree. RR is less awful than a stator and I need one anyway.
(If or when I do the stator for the first time I'll try the tip bike on its side method so not to change oil)

Q) on step 1 any advice or thoughts on what RR to get be appreciated. I can barely think straight after all this.

 

[Steve]

I can't find fault with any of the suggestions so far, but they all seem to be electrical, not mechanical.

The part about "hard to start" is what is bothering me. Hard to start issues usually involve a cold engine, not warm, but those are usually resolved by a proper valve adjustment. How long has it been since you checked your valve clearances? NOTE: if you do have to adjust them, lean toward the looser side of specs.

.

 

[ukjules]

Electrical yes hence in electrical forum .... This is all electrical !! Don't be swayed with mechanical thoughts here.

The starter motor is a separate conincidental issue which makes it hard to start. It is knackered !! Proved via isolating it and tapping it. I want a new one or and a kit to repair brushes. Help there be good !! Which kit to use in UK ??????

But assume all , the bike is mechanically spot on in every other way and runs like a dream when running.