Stater and Reg/Rect problems on 82 GS650Ez

[Grimly]

merely curiousities...and there's nothing I know particularly bad with a Series type.....It's just that when people say things like "too much power shunted to R/R" I can't help thinking, "but If you run your heated vest and handlebar grips all winter, what difference is that from "shunting"? I haven't seen any problem myself and a Series R/R won't make any difference if I did. The over-arching assumptions are quite annoying and the "proof" seems too tailored to the "solution"

Don't think of it directly as electrical, think of it as heat energy.
The alternator and reg-rec combined are acting like a heat transference device.
Wanted heat is going to your appliances, headlamp, vest, arseheater, etc.
Unwanted heat is going back into the downward-going leg of the stator at any one time.
When it boils down to essentials, its a transfer of electrical energy which expresses itself as heat, just like a whole load of other processes.

HEAT IS THE ENEMY.

There's been a huge amount of drivel expressed in this thread.

 

[Suzukian]

Heat is "Watts" (P) in electronics P/IxE. Drivel, unfortunately, is also a big by produce when talking about electronics.

 

[Nessism]

merely curiousities...and there's nothing I know particularly bad with a Series type.....It's just that when people say things like "too much power shunted to R/R" I can't help thinking, "but If you run your heated vest and handlebar grips all winter, what difference is that from "shunting"? I haven't seen any problem myself and a Series R/R won't make any difference if I did. The over-arching assumptions are quite annoying and the "proof" seems too tailored to the "solution"

It's pretty much irrefutable that running a Series R/R reduces the stator's temperature under at least some, if not most, riding conditions. And heat is the enemy of these devices. Since Series R/R's became the gospel around here, I can only remember hearing about one person that suffered a stator failure after install, and the stator in question was well-used at that point. On the other hand, people installing Honda R/R's (three-phase type) suffered stator failure 11.5% of the time, according to Posplayr's poll here.

So the real question becomes, why wouldn't you install a Series R/R? I was just checking prices on eBay, and good used SH775 units can be had for $35 (+ tax) shipped. Stupid cheap for something that is almost guaranteed to improve the reliability of the most significant weakness GS bikes have.

 

[Gorminrider]

Facts about shunt-based regulators
It is complicated but I get that people are happy with their fixes when they work. But with 60 hp (44,760 watts) inches away, 60F degrees up or down doesn't turn my crank that much even assuming that it's scientific and not "evidence produced to suit"... You may not remember but a certain amount of the "proof" originates with certain water cooled bikes. But if I goto forums that are mentioned say, in the list of R/Rs in the first post, R/Rs don't show up.

In a parallel universe, I am telling everyone they have to do this....

 

[Suzukian]

I've never seen that before. Kind of funny. With all the bike that fall over, why not put the thing somewhere inside the case!!

 

[Nessism]

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?240785-Facts-about-shunt-based-regulators

I read this the other day. That Timebandit guy is also tailoring his "facts" to match HIS narrative.

Thing is, why do you think the Aprillia forum is talking about R/R's? And the Triumph forum, and Honda forum, US, etc... It's because STATORS ARE BURNING UP like crazy. Is it because Aprillia, Triumph, Honda, etc, are using regulators that don't regulate on three phases? LOL. NO. And what are most guys on these forums doing to fix their bikes? Here I'll help: Install a SH775 (or similar series R/R.) The proof is in the fix. Bash all you want, but the fix works, and nothing else has proven to be even remotely as effective.

 

[Brendan W]

While much of this discussion regarding amps, ohms, and watts goes over my head, I'm fairly certain that no electrical component on the bike runs on un-rectified AC current. It's my understanding that the headlight gets its DC power after the fuse box, after the R//R, like every other component. The on/off switch, on bikes where there is a operable switch, let the AC power in that long g/w then r/w stator leg that goes through the left hand control go on through to the RR. On bikes w/out an operable switch (headlamp always on), that leg is essentially always carrying 1/3 of the stator ouput to the RR, it's just way longer than it needs to be w/ more connections than it needs to have, providing more opportunity for corrosion in contacts to cause resistance/heat/melting.

Am I wrong? Serious question. Always willing to learn.

That is my understanding also and the 850 diagram confirms it.
I bought in to Jim's advice about the charging system and grounding strategy even if the effects of the latter are marginal.
In fairness to Suzuki, in their wildest dreams they did not see these machines lasting forty years.
Something else I think I recall Jim saying was that we don't see series R/Rs everywhere because they have a switching frequency limitation which is fine for slow revving lumps like the GS
Looking at the power dissipation of 350W at 4000rpm, right there is half a horsepower. That should be motivation enough to have it switched off when not needed.

 

[Rich82GS750TZ]

I'll take your word for it, Brendan, My brain just ain't big enough to understand most of that. My bike runs, and charges, and the wires weren't melting last I looked. That's good enough for me.

 

[Suzukian]

This thread reminds me of the time cone in Stephen Hawkings "A brief History of Time'.

 

[Rich82GS750TZ]

This is more my speed.

 

[Nessism]

Something else I think I recall Jim saying was that we don't see series R/Rs everywhere because they have a switching frequency limitation which is fine for slow revving lumps like the GS

Looking at the power dissipation of 350W at 4000rpm, right there is half a horsepower. That should be motivation enough to have it switched off when not needed.

The slow switching feature reduces voltages spikes, which can break down the stator winding insulation, so it's not all bad.

 

[Brendan W]

The slow switching feature reduces voltages spikes, which can break down the stator winding insulation, so it's not all bad.

Went over to the Aprilia forum for a look at the 'myths' about shunt vs series and as I recall they had been discussed by Jim is some detail on here for those who cared to read.
It's not a binary situation about the heat and so on.
Jim probably has forgotten more about this stuff than I will ever know.
Sometimes you hear a voice and you just know it speaks true.
It might take a long time to explain the nuances fully but who has the time.

 

[Suzukian]

Just in case the link was hard to find for anyone, I figure I would post it. I looked at my bike to see what regulator I put in it. It is a Shunt/Mosfet R/R (Kawasaki YFZ-R1 FH012AA). 8 years, and 1000's of miles on it, it's half the price of other Series types I've just looked at (at new prices). I'm happy with what I have, it's worked well, it cost me almost nothing, and they still are cheap. Not getting into any theory, just some empirical data.

https://thegsresources.com/statorpapers.php

 

[650Skull]

Thanks guys. Arrived in NZ yesterday arvo. Seen the G650Ez in person for the first time. Looks good, needs a general clean. The charging components arrived, here at my sons place, i can at least get that sorted and do some short exploratory trips. Starts and run good. Kane, (my on) had it running 3 days ago and it started without choke yesterday arvo. Warm days, i guess that helps

Ended up getting a new SH775 R/R from Roadster Cycle, they supplied all the couplings and extra wiring, (would have had to buy the parts separate and with extra postage costs, going the route i have was easier) and a new Stater from Aus.

Will update when i install.

 

[Gorminrider]

I absolutely agree that if you are happy with your replacement that's great. Shindegnen makes good stuff. But it's stuff like this that makes me unhappy.

It's pretty much irrefutable that running a Series R/R reduces the stator's temperature under at least some, if not most, riding conditions. And heat is the enemy of these devices

In the event your stator is hotter it'd depend on the varnish of the windings breaking down. It should not. Winding wire and it's coating is chosen to be well beyond any ability of the stator to hurt them.

Looking at the power dissipation of 350W at 4000rpm, right there is half a horsepower. That should be motivation enough to have it switched off when not needed.

It sounds a little bit like you're saying the wiring in my walls is "consuming" what my stove is...it might help to look at a lightbulb which is TRYING to convert watts to heat and light...while my walls don't themselves catch fire.
I calculate a leg of my stator(18ga*32feet)* has a 0.206 ohm resistance so there's a start for someone that really cares...but as I linked before, it's all a lot more difficult than that. If a series stator "fixes" it I guess that's easier than rewinding the stator or whatever ideafixee you take to heart but the reasons people offer are not satisfying.

*the original had a little more wire

 

[Gorminrider]

I've never seen that before. Kind of funny. With all the bike that fall over, why not put the thing somewhere inside the case!!

assuming the crash bar fails to do so,it IS a case saver. Replaceable. ...but I haven't tried sliding the bike on it yet. Funny Nobody has asked if it cools the the stator at all. I find that very interesting...

 

[Suzukian]

It's on the engine, how much cooling could possibly happen unless it was mounted to an insulator of some sort. Even then, it's on the source of all the heat the motorcycle makes. Not a good place, heat is the enemy of electronics.

 

[Suzukian]

An addendum, if you mounted that on a 3/8th's thick sheet of Asbestos, that would insulate it so much, the R/R wouldn't know if it was on fire, or ice.

 

[Rob S.]

I've never seen that before.

Parts like that were not uncommon in the '70's and '80's. Strictly for looks.

 

[650Skull]

Started to clean off the Lanolin oil with WD40.

One half done ..........thought an afternoon photo was needed
​