16valve adjusters coming loose

[CincinnatiKid]

Hi, i know the adjustment interval for the adjusters vs shim is like 4k miles vs 8k miles, but mine aren't staying put.
i've got a GS1100E that i ride a lot, and have used for 4-5 track days this summer. i rebuilt the top end in April, and have done 3 valve adjustments so far, due to loose tappets making noise. Most recently, about a week and a half ago i opened the engine and found #1 and #4 cylinder exhaust valves a bit loose (.05" instead of .04"), but i could hear the tapping so i wanted to get things right. Adjusted/checked all the valves twice, rotating the engine between checks. the tapping was gone when i started the engine and was fine while riding around the city and such.

took a trip last weekend (~500miles round trip) and then brought the bike to the track on Monday. it's tapping again.

I know i got all my locknuts tight, though I didnt put a torque wrench on them. by the feel of my hand on the wrench, i'd say they were between 10-20ftlbs tight.

seems wrong for the tappets to loose themselves after less than 1000 miles.
any insights, recommendations or techniques to help keep them in spec any longer?
or just SHUT UP AND RIDE.
1/2 of me says "if you can hear it tapping, it's not correct... fix it"
the other 1/2 says "everyone is always saying that these are 'bulletproof' motors... wait til 4000 to do the adjustment"

C

 

[Guest]

well you DO NOT WANT THOSE NUTS TO COME LOOSE, FOR SURE. that being said, a certain amount of tappity tap is, as far as i can tell after 15 years or so of gs ownership, fairly normal.... Furthermore, a little loose on the valves is better than too tight (talking valve clearance here, not adjuster tightness....) as they wear tighter. Me, if I was worried the adjuster nuts were coming loose, I'd check them. Cover gasket "might" be reusable after the short interval, even if you need a new one, its like, 20 bucks or so for oem (I always have an extra on hand just in case)..... as a side note, if you have 2 feeler gauges it makes it easier to get the 2 adjusters per valve even, and even is good.....

 

[Gorminrider]

though I didnt put a torque wrench on them. by the feel of my hand on the wrench, i'd say they were between 10-20ftlbs tight

I hate to be the nanny-guy but really, a small torque wrench in Inch/lbs is something to you need. It needn't be the most expensive. If a nut and adjuster come loose, it will do serious damage. You may have already damaged the threads in the tappets ...loctite at the least.

 

[dorkburger]

Assuming that your clearance checking is correct, is there any chance that the cam or followers are dying?
A friend had an extremely abused 1100e that the cam started going round on.

 

[GregT]

If the adjuster nuts are still tight, what you're describing isn't the adjusters coming loose - it's the clearances growing.
Next time you pull the cam cover, take out a follower pivot shaft - the followers will stay in place if you're careful.
You can then lift each follower out and have a look at the rubbing surface. Flats are a giveaway that it's gone through the hardening.

Megacycle and other cam companies offer a refacing service for the followers. Usually the cams aren't too badly worn.

 

[Guest]

Assuming that your clearance checking is correct, is there any chance that the cam or followers are dying?
A friend had an extremely abused 1100e that the cam started going round on.

Usually the followers get a lateral groove in them, especially if the valves have gone tight at some time. If this goes down through the hardening the dominoes start to fall and things wear loose. I've seen some seriously cratered rockers and 'low lift' cams, still running.

 

[Steve]

... i opened the engine and found #1 and #4 cylinder exhaust valves a bit loose (.05" instead of .04"),

I am going to be the one to ask you whether you are mis-adjusting your valves or are simply mis-typing on the keyboard? :-k

The stock clearance is 0.08-0.13mm, which is 0.003-0.005".

Did you note the extra zero?

If you really do have your clearance set to 0.04", of course it's going to be noisy.

.

 

[CincinnatiKid]

hi thanks for the replies. yes it was a keyboard typo steve. .004" was what i adjusted to.
i have recently been back into the engine, and none of the adjusters were loose. my torquing of locknuts was/is fine. not entertaining the idea of putting locktite on my valve adjusters!

here's the update... bike is parked in the garage until i can get this sorted.

i kept riding the bike around town and to work. tapping was still there, but not getting any worse.
earlier this month, i had a job about 50mi from the house, and took the GS there and back on the interstate. when i got back to Chicago on the way home, getting off the interstate I heard that the tapping was markedly louder. Definitely coming from cylinder 1 side, almost sure it's exhaust valve side, just by ear. Instead of going home, i went to the shop and dropped the bike off so I could come back the next afternoon and check the valves on a stone cold engine.

almost all the valves were right in spec. one of the cyl 1 exhaust valves was actually tight. nothing was radically out. I reset them all, checked twice. buttoned the valve cover up, re-used the OEM gasket for the 3rd time, and began the 4 mile ride back to the house. The heightened tapping sound was still there. I got the bike home to my garage, sat and thought for a second, and checked the oil. it was low. there's been a small leak from the front center of the engine between cyl 2/3 exhaust manifold, but manageable, i've kept an eye on it. the bike needed about a quart of oil or so. I top it off. that night getting ready to go to work, I pull the bike out and start it, walk it out of the garage and see its leaking oil badly. bad news. Bike is parked now.

 

[CincinnatiKid]

The next day I go to investigate and see the oil is coming from the filter cover. I took the pipes off, clean the hell out of the front of the engine w brake cleaner etc etc and then splash some baby powder on the engine to find where its leaking. i find it's from the filter cover (compromised o-ring? why would that just go bad all the sudden?). I also find that the upper oil leak is coming from one of the 2 center front head nuts that has the o-ring seal.

I have ordered a new filter with an o-ring, as well as a new head gasket. I plan to line the inside of the filter cover o-ring channel with a modest amount of RTV to make sure it seals properly the next time.

The clymer manual says you can remove the head with the engine in the frame. I believe this to be true unless someone says otherwise. I'm going to take the head off and inspect the cylinder 1 exhaust valves, among the others. At this point, I'm not sure what the tapping could be, but the tempo and location of the noise certainly makes me think it's a part of the valve train. Perhaps the lack of oil on the highway riding caused the cylinder 1 exhaust valves to overheat. maybe warping them? I hope not. I am grateful for the other posters here who brought up the camshaft and follower as another potential point of failure. I'll inspect there as well.

Also while the head is off, I can inspect/clean/help to reseal the head nut.

As I type this, I realize that I ought to do a compression test before tearing into the head. so that's step one.

 

[CincinnatiKid]

Another clue of hot-running cylinder 1 would be the inside of the headers.

Cylinders 2 and 3 had more of a darker soot, while cylinders 1 and 4 had a lighter grey soot to them. seems relevant. running leaner = more heat.

I have k&n pods with a stage 3 dynojet kit installed. perhaps I ought to raise the needle on cylinders 1 and 4.

 

[GregT]

Don't put RTV on the filter O ring. A couple of dabs of grease to hold it in place while the cover goes on is all that's needed.

If you have the valve cover off, check that the springs locating the cam followers are all intact.
The O ring on that head bolt can be changed in isolation - without removing the head.

A rare event I have struck a couple of times is a loose valve seat in the head. One symptom was a rattle when hot.

 

[Guest]

re: the clattering, make sure the exhaust bolts are tight with new gaskets. I occasionally have one come loose (studs with nuts instead of the bolts) and when it's a bit loose, the noise can be....disconcerting. Just make sure you check all the simple stuff before you go pulling the head. Though, to be fair, at this age a lot of these bikes seem to be developing leaky valve stem seals, and are due for a top-end refresh anyway, so..... And yes, head can come off in-frame.

 

[Steve]

One other note: When you pull the head, also plan on pulling the cylinders to replace the base gasket. :-k

No matter how careful you might be, when you pull the head, you WILL disturb the base gasket. Replace it. Use OEM gaskets.

.

 

[Grimly]

+1 (many times) for the leaky exhaust sounding like worrisome mechanical mayhem about to ensue.
First time I heard it I was sure I'd ran a little end.

 

[CincinnatiKid]

Don't put RTV on the filter O ring. A couple of dabs of grease to hold it in place while the cover goes on is all that's needed.

If you have the valve cover off, check that the springs locating the cam followers are all intact.
The O ring on that head bolt can be changed in isolation - without removing the head.

A rare event I have struck a couple of times is a loose valve seat in the head. One symptom was a rattle when hot.

The cover leaking out of nowhere had me second guessing the o-ring seal, and I figured a very modest bead of RTV, cured for an hour or so before an o-ring is installed, will help give me some assurance. I love RTV when used sparingly and judiciously.

I have replaced the o-rings on those head bolts already once, greased and reinstalled (one at a time), and still have sealing issues. Tempted to reinstall with the tiniest bit of...... Hi temp RTV just damn tired of having a *@%^$*@%^$*@%^$*@%^$ty looking front of my engine.

My exhaust has flanges that bolt onto the head, and the headers slip onto those and are secured with hook springs. I’ll check my bolts holding the flanges. Those were installed in like June with new gaskets and anti-seize.

 

[Rob S.]

i've got a GS1100E that i ride a lot...
C

Apparently it makes no difference, just curious: '81, '82 or '83?

 

[CincinnatiKid]

Apparently it makes no difference, just curious: '81, '82 or '83?

1981... but the site says i need at least ten characters per post

 

[Rob S.]

1981... but the site says i need at least ten characters per post

Take good care of that historic bike...1981's World's Quickest Production motorcycle. Beating the Kaw GPz11 by a hair in the 1/4 mile, but the next year (my bike), it was just the opposite. Grr...

 

[GregT]

The cover leaking out of nowhere had me second guessing the o-ring seal, and I figured a very modest bead of RTV, cured for an hour or so before an o-ring is installed, will help give me some assurance. I love RTV when used sparingly and judiciously.

I have replaced the o-rings on those head bolts already once, greased and reinstalled (one at a time), and still have sealing issues. Tempted to reinstall with the tiniest bit of...... Hi temp RTV just damn tired of having a *@%^$*@%^$*@%^$*@%^$ty looking front of my engine.

My exhaust has flanges that bolt onto the head, and the headers slip onto those and are secured with hook springs. I?ll check my bolts holding the flanges. Those were installed in like June with new gaskets and anti-seize.

RTV on the cover O ring can get into the oiling system. Don't use it there.
If you've replaced the O rings on the head bolts and it still leaks, the O rings may have been too small a section. There are multiple thicknesses available.
Measure what you've got and check out what's available from a specialist supplier. I don't have the data on what's required.

 

[CincinnatiKid]

checked my exhaust bolts today. all were tight. retorqued them for good measure.

checked my plugs. they look fine. cylinders 1 and 4 look a little lean but nothing drastic.

compression measurements were taken on a cold engine
cyl - measurement
1- 120 psi
2- 110 psi
3- 125 psi
4- 110 psi

so this kinda seems to me that we don't have a warped exhaust valve in cylinder 1, or anything like that, which would require me to pull the head. i'll hold off on pulling the head for now, and focus on what i can get with the valve cover off.




an aside question: i had this plug (doesn't look factory) in a gallery behind my oil filter cover. it was in the engine, on the bottom (cyl 3/4 side) of the oil filter housing area. doesn't show up in the parts fiche. any idea what it could be? seems like it has something to do with the oil cooler.