Another battery question. I am just confused

[Boriqua]

I installed a new Stator about 1500 miles ago along with a shunt RR both from Motosport. I installed a new cheap wet cell about 2600 miles ago

About 250 miles ago I installed a used SH775. Before I put in the new RR I checked and the battery was at 12.20 volts at rest. I realized two things .. one of the legs from my stator was arching some due to a bad crimp and half of one battery cell was depleted of liquid by about half.

I topped up the cell and put the battery on a battery tender over night. When I took it off it was at 12.75. Two days later it was at 12.38. Over the course of the last month and 250 miles I have checked regularly and it is still at 12.38.

So is the crappy battery not able to accept more charge? Is the new RR not providing enough charge? I have tried to do the posplayer test when the engine runs and checking at various RPM but all that happens is my meter just jumps around all over the place and I cant get a good reading. Is there a meter that is not 5 million dollars that I should look at?

Does it remaining at 12.38 tell me something and I am not hearing it? Bike starts and runs without issue. Did some 60 miles yesterday in the 110 degree heat and turned it off and on several times without issue. Bike is actually running like a dream.

 

[posplayr]

The only way to test a battery is a load test. That means to test to see how much the voltage drops when you apply a known load (pull a known current). Measuring quiescent voltage does not do this.

The quick test does this (pretty much) in the first step.

See my signature.

 

[tom203]

As to your meter issue, $10 meters will work, if youunderstand how to use them. First do the AC stator test - no r/r can do much if your stator is bad

With stator leads disconnected from r/r, and multimeter set on 200 VAC (or same scale that you measure house outlet with) ,run engine @5000 revs, and measure stator lead to lead and note readings. Then ,while still running,measure from any (or all) stator lead to a good bike ground: you want to see a very low reading here...0 would be ideal. This is a crude test of stator's isolation from ground.

 

[Guest]

As to your meter issue, $10 meters will work, if youunderstand how to use them. First do the AC stator test - no r/r can do much if your stator is bad

+1, this is where to start and I agree on the meter. I use an el cheapo unit from Canadian Tire (similar to Harbor Freight in the US) and it works fine. When I test the R/R output the voltage is very stable, hardly changing at all with steady revs.


Mark

 

[Boriqua]

I am having trouble with steps 3 through 5 with my meter. When I try and do the charging test

3.) at idle (1500 rpm).....12.6volts - 13.2volts

4.) at 2500 rpm 13.5 -14.0 volts

5.) at 5000 rpm.....14.0 -15.0 volts

My meter never sits at a number. it just looks like a slot machine. I have done the stator leg tests and the meter is great for that but once I have the bike running the numbers never settle to near anything I can use as a reading. I was using a harbor freight and thought maybe a small upgrade so bought a southwire 10030s but same deal. Just incomprehensible flashing numbers.

For giggles I put the battery on my battery tender until the light went green. It read 13.2 ... 2 hours later and it reads 12.58. I am going to run it over to the auto place and have them do a load test but now I have a new question.

I have been looking at AGM batteries and the many threads on here but still haven't found what I am looking for. I have seen motobatt batteries where the description reads 15 amps and a less expensive one that reads 11. I never delved this far into battery knowledge. What amperage do I need for my 82 750E?
Alex

 

[cowboyup3371]

You need to get the same size as the one in your bike; basically if you have yb10 then get motobatt’s mb10. You can also call motobatt and talk to a real person who will set you up properly (I did that for Charmayne’s last battery)

 

[Boriqua]

Just got back from O'reilly's and they said the battery tested good at 12.23. I handed them a full charged battery which on my meter was 12.58. I am assuming 12.23 is what their testing held as under load charge.

It has been sitting steady at 12.38 for a month. I am going to go with .. the battery is at fault and it will have to be replaced soonish and my charging system is doing what it can with a tortured battery.

Now the question becomes .. is the 80% battery harming my charging system.

 

[hannibal]

I think your battery is OK. What were your results from steps 1 and 2? If it's reading 12.38V in step 2, I wouldn't worry at all. If it's 12.38V in step 1, what's it reading in step 2?

Your meter may be fine as well. If it can read battery voltage firmly at 12.38V but bounces around when the bike is running, it's probably because the voltage at the battery is jumping around. This could mean you have some bad connections on the R/R and/or it's still "arcing" somewhere. Is your R/R properly ground and the positive wired securely? Are your wires and connections to the stator good from end to end?

 

[Gorminrider]

...and half of one battery cell was depleted of liquid by about half.

I topped up the cell and put the battery on a battery tender over night. When I took it off it was at 12.75. Two days later it was at 12.38. Over the course of the last month and 250 miles I have checked regularly and it is still at 12.38.

So is the crappy battery not able to accept more charge?

That's right. your battery won't accept more-it's no longer brand new.... To use voltage as a test of battery condition, It takes at least a day resting to show it. But that 12.38 is not bad. Your battery is still at about 80% and good enough to run around on. But keep checking the electrolyte level regularly.

I would NOT buy a sealed battery until you fix whatever charging issue you have.

 

[posplayr]

That's right. your battery won't accept more-it's no longer brand new.... To use voltage as a test of battery condition, It takes at least a day resting to show it. But that 12.38 is not bad. Your battery is still at about 80% and good enough to run around on. But keep checking the electrolyte level regularly.

I would NOT buy a sealed battery until you fix whatever charging issue you have.

Almost every commercial battery tester uses some form of load test to see how many drops in voltage there is. C is a good (quick) load test for a battery (If it is a 10AmpHr battery then do a 10 amp load test).
You can do the test in less than 1/10 of a second or however long it takes you to read the voltage meter.

Your test is doing a load test of sorts; you are relying on the internal self discharge (guessing C/100 to C/1000) as a load. You can get a much better and more immediate evaluation of the batter doing as I described.

Just turning on the standard loads gives about 10 amp load with a 14 AmpHr battery that is 10/14= 10/14C = .7C

 

[fastbysuzuki]

You described your battery as a cheap crappy battery is it worth playing around with it? You say it's charging at 5000 giving 14.5 v if that's the case the charging system is working I would recommend a motobat for your bike it's a http://www.motobatt.us/MBTX14AU-Motobatt-12V-Battery

 

[Gorminrider]

Almost every commercial battery tester uses some form of load test to see how many drops in voltage there is. C is a good (quick) load test for a battery (If it is a 10AmpHr battery then do a 10 amp load test).
You can do the test in less than 1/10 of a second or however long it takes you to read the voltage meter.

Your test is doing a load test of sorts; you are relying on the internal self discharge (guessing C/100 to C/1000) as a load. You can get a much better and more immediate evaluation of the batter doing as I described.

Just turning on the standard loads gives about 10 amp load with a 14 AmpHr battery that is 10/14= 10/14C = .7C

....but I've seen these be wrong especially where a defective wet-cell battery has been just charged up ....I watched a parts-guy use a patented load-tester-doodad on a car battery I brought back as "defective-while-still-warrantied " and when he thereafter told me the battery was fine, I asked him to try with his HYDROMETER..( I already knew it had a bad cell). That is also a simple test. And I got my new battery.

unfortunately, With sealed batteries a hydrometer becomes obsolete. Batteries become black boxes and a load test is going to be the way to go, I guess.

Otherwise, a simple voltage " test at rest" without disconnecting or connecting or turning anything off or on has always given me a handy indication of overall condition on any battery.

 

[Boriqua]

You described your battery as a cheap crappy battery is it worth playing around with it?

I think its called super start or some such generic name and I purchased it from the local "autozone" type store when I first started the bikes resurrection. So the battery has been through a lot. At first it was running and crashing until I learned about the stator .. after testing the stator and realizing it wasnt doing its job I replaced the stator and since the 2fer price wasnt so bad I changed the RR as well but not after discharging that battery 10 times trying to figure out what was wrong.

Then I had the bad crimp I rode with for 200 miles or more, letting one of the cells go almost empty and 1500 on the shunt rr .. Sooooooo I cant complain about the battery to hard since here I am a year and half later still riding on it. Remember I don't store a bike out here so it gets ridden all year.

I will keep metering the bike once a week and know that sometime this winter a new battery is due.

 

[posplayr]

....but I've seen these be wrong especially where a defective wet-cell battery has been just charged up ....I watched a parts-guy use a patented load-tester-doodad on a car battery I brought back as "defective-while-still-warrantied " and when he thereafter told me the battery was fine, I asked him to try with his HYDROMETER..( I already knew it had a bad cell). That is also a simple test. And I got my new battery.

unfortunately, With sealed batteries a hydrometer becomes obsolete. Batteries become black boxes and a load test is going to be the way to go, I guess.

Otherwise, a simple voltage " test at rest" without disconnecting or connecting or turning anything off or on has always given me a handy indication of overall condition on any battery.

You are obviously missing the point. Load testing is not invalidated because of poor equipment. A load test measures a fundamental parameter of any electrical voltage source whether battery or power supply or generator specifically internal resistance.
For virtually any non-EFI UJM that still has close to stock lighting, the built-in load of those components is sufficient to test the battery and is done with a simple turn of the ignition key with ignition and light switches ON.

This is an immediate, in-situ operational test. The results are immediate and you don't have to wait two or there days and get confused with surface change and chemistry specific battery characteristics because you did not use a significant load anywhere approaching the standard operational load (i.e. 10 amps).

Your presumption that you can use self-discharge (10's of milliamps) over a 1-2 day period as a determinate is only valid if you have a really bad battery. You probably don't know this because you seem to only determine battery health using a very poor method.

 

[Gorminrider]

that sounds awfully similar to another " immediate, in-situ operational test".

Does it start the bike?


....Many times the directions that come with a new batterywill tell you to let the battery rest.... surface charge does not seem to be the same as self-discharge
http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/surf_chg.html
http://www.batteryeducation.com/2012/10/battery-self-discharge-rates.html

 

[posplayr]

that sounds awfully similar to another " immediate, in-situ operational test".

Does it start the bike?


....Many times the directions that come with a new batterywill tell you to let the battery rest.... surface charge does not seem to be the same as self-discharge
http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/surf_chg.html
http://www.batteryeducation.com/2012/10/battery-self-discharge-rates.html

A bike start is a poor test of a battery. Many things other than the battery can keep the bike from running. If the lights are on, and your ignition coils are OK, you have 10 amps of load. And no the starter is not a good test because you don't know if the battery is being pulled down from a draggy battery. Who knows what the load is for every different motor? You think all starters pull the same current regardless if it is a GS400 or a GS1166 with 10.25 CR?
How does your mketer react to the bouncing current draw from the starter and are you going to disconnect the coils so you can run the stater to steady state? There are all kinds of variables you are introducing into the mix.

Self-discharge and surface charge are two distinctly different things but both manifest themselves as voltages.

So when your voltage drops after taking it off the charger, is it the elimination of surface charge and how much of it is self-discharge?

To be clear surface charge represents a state of the battery where it exhibits considerably larger internal impedance. For example, when you first pull the battery off the charger it is probably above 13V. But once you pull a small amount of current, that so-called surface charge of the battery is removed and the voltage drops to a more normal 12.8V. At that point, you can put a larger load on the battery but per unit of current you are drawing, you won't pull the voltage down as much.

In the scheme of things this is a secondary effect but certainly, one that will corrupt your sell discharge based measurements. The point is that dealing in small current loads does not make the State of charge observable because you are trying to infer SOC from small voltage changes affected by secondary effects.

You put a 10 amps load on the battery and there effects are irrelevant and you get an immediate result.

 

[Gorminrider]

and, Mind you, if you "load test" a doubtful battery away from a handy means to charge it back up, you are hurting the battery. A deeply discharged battery MUST be immediately re-charged, especially the smaller bike batteries...so,again, starting the bike and running it to recharge is the thing wanted..... I think I'll stick with the voltage test as a rule of thumb.

So when your voltage drops after taking it off the charger, is it the elimination of surface charge and how much of it is self-discharge?

very little is "self-discharge".
I've just put the beater bike back on the road. Resting at 12.2 after 3 months and the bike started right up. It's gassing off while I run it round but it's good enough. Starts when I get off and on again. Sure, I can prove it's on its way out and some lump of sulfate is bound to shake loose and short the plates out but meanwhile....

 

[posplayr]

and, Mind you, if you "load test" a doubtful battery away from a handy means to charge it back up, you are hurting the battery. A deeply discharged battery MUST be immediately re-charged, especially the smaller bike batteries...so,again, starting the bike and running it to recharge is the thing wanted..... I think I'll stick with the voltage test as a rule of thumb.

You distract and deflect. The key on load tests takes less than 2 seconds. As long as it tacks for the needle to move and register a voltage. A bike can run on battery alone for over an hour and there is nothing precluding from riding the bike for hours after the test as long as you have gas.

I have little doubt you will keep doing what you do. I'm just aprizing anybody else that it makes little sense when the key on test is objectively so much superior.

 

[Steve]

... the key on test is objectively so much superior.

And only requires a simple voltmeter as a 'test tool'.

.

 

[Gorminrider]

I take your point about 2 seconds key on being "trivial" and it's fine to say that "my battery falls to a certain voltage and stays there" indicates that it can do that for awhile. But starting the bike being "a poor test" seems pretty odd to me. It's what I want it to do and it's what the battery is designed for.

As to key-on test, "and "internal resistance" etc etc etc etc, doesn't it suppose all Suzukis have equal key-on loads? I suppose I can figure out a sum of 10 amps if I don't have an LED headlamp but You don't exactly say what a reading of your method is going to tell anyone. Judging by your reference to your "quick test", nobody is going to "pass" the test as "normal" unless they have a brand new battery....or should I expect a 1/2 volt drop?


A real load test is done out of the bike for this reason-separating it from the bike's problems. ....as to the "only way to test the battery" well... I mentioned a hydrometer. I don't agree that that's "deflection and distraction". It tests each cell and is crucial to gauging battery health whether it's a new or old battery...(the point of my anecdote) I'll certainly miss them as the no-maintenance batteries take over because getting a gaurantee honored is going to be less... "user accessible"?

But there's tons of info on "battery-wanking" online.
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/bu_914_battery_test_summary_table

It isn't a super-duper test but a simple voltage test on a battery on the bench or in the bike before you turn the key can be done on almost any battery. There's a simple tablesomewhere but hey, IMO 12.5 and up is pretty good, 12.2 and below is getting iffy. Easy.
sure, if I have it right? you can turn the key and take 1/2 a volt off that. So what?

Combining whichever simple test with trying to start the bike a few times and running around to charge it up to do it again, it's what I think most of us want to know- Will it start the bike and "gee-should-I-think-seriously-of-replacing-the-battery-before-buying-bling".