Countersteering?

[Pete Logan]

but a bigger problem, especially for NEW riders, comes from THINKING about it while riding.

When I came back to riding I found that one way to initiate a countersteer is to turn your head just a fraction towards the outside of the upcoming bend.

Seems this slight movement is sufficient to change the angle of your shoulders and put just a little pressure on the inside bar.

 

[Big Al in NY]

Thanks for the positive responses on such an important part of motorcycling. I've read alot on the subject and have come to the conclusion that the most important thing is to know how to use it rather than "why" it works. Seems like even "the brains" of the world can't agree on "why", lol.

I never took the "msf" class but agree, it should be mandatory. In NY you even get your license at the end of it(assuming you pass). On the other hand, getting your license without ever leaving the parking lot is scary too.

You have to do something 1000x for it to become a reaction. Practice, practice, practice. I like to practice on the straight aways, basically putting the bike where I want in my lane. Then I move to the corners changing lines in my lane. I figure it prepares me for the time someone or something is in my lane and I need to react quick.

Want to hear how countersteering killed a deer?

Big Al

 

[Counter]

I don't know how the deer could hold the handlebars with no fingers.

 

[reddirtrider]

When I came back to riding I found that one way to initiate a countersteer is to turn your head just a fraction towards the outside of the upcoming bend.

Seems this slight movement is sufficient to change the angle of your shoulders and put just a little pressure on the inside bar.

Pete your head should look inside on a turn. Your bike will always tend to go where you look. You're confusing the heck out of me. I fail to see why you need to trick your hands into countersteering by moving your head.

This isn't rocket science. You guys are making this much more complicated than it is. Read the Keith Code article. He knows more about riding and riding techniques than almost anyone on the planet.

Countersteering is only one aspect of cornering properly. Another is to look where you want to go - never off to the side of the road and not straight ahead.

I'm gonna quit reading this thread as it makes me question if I want to ride in a GS group. Maybe we need an ambulance chaser.

 

[Sandy]

Countersteering is only one aspect of cornering properly. Another is to look where you want to go - never off to the side of the road and not straight ahead.

Absolutely, it only initiates the turn. What happens after that is dependant on the motorcycles setup ie: tires, rake, trail, swingarm configuration, etc. People tend to confuse all these items in the theory of countersteering. If a motorcycle has neutral cornering characteristics, some do, you only need to countersteer into and out of a corner without tweaking the bar to maintain your line. My '85 FZ750 with stock size tires was like this, with larger tires it wasn't. If it does not have neutral cornering characteristics, like many, you have to constantly be tweaking or maintaining pressure on the bar to maintain your line. While this is in effect countersteering it is only to over come the particular handling quirks of that particular setup.

 

[Redman]

..........
have come to the conclusion that the most important thing is to know how to use it rather than "why" it works. Seems like even "the brains" of the world can't agree on "why", lol............

Al,

I too used to like to try to explain the "why". Have researced and read some many explaintions, some that exceed my college level engineering-calculus-based physics classes (or at least my fading memory of them). And I think I have a couple of ways to explain the "why". But I have come to understand that when trying to describe it at all to anyone for any reason, it is important to make a somewhat minor, but very important, distinction. And that is: The counter steering is more to get the bike to lean (fall over actaully), then can turn.

And I too, no longer try to start the discussion with the "why it works", but more the "how to do it", and more the "yes, it does work" and the "this is why you need to use it". Then let the person expereince that, then in later discussions can talk more about the "why it works".

Other comments:
- can turn a bike at speed without countersteering. By leaning, just that the responce is real slow and not precise. The responce to contersteering is real quick and can make fine adjustments.
- many people dont know about countersteering and will deny that they are doing it, but they are. They may say they are pulling the bike over with handlebars, or they may say they are just leaning, or thay may say they are pushing down on footpeg. But what they are also doing without knowin it is also pulling on opposite handlebar, even if just a little. And that little bit has more effect than what they think they are doing.
- at speed do not have to turn bar much at all, an impreciveable amount, just enought to push against the gryoscopic forces.
- at slow speed counter steering does work, but have to do it in a very exagerated fashion to where the bike is actaully falling over, and then steer back to catch it before do actaully fall over. So countersteer to start to fall over, then steer keep from falling over.

.

 

[reddirtrider]

One more time - you CANNOT turn a bike at speed without countersteering. Keith Code has proven that with his no BS bike (no bull**** bike - read the article). When you lean into a corner without intentionally coutersteering, in reality you ARE countersteering by applying pressure to the bars in the proper fashion. Now, if you apply the countersteering technique properly your turns will be much crisper and efficient.

A cornering thread might be more appropriate than just discussing countersteering. Personally I don't care why it works, just that it does. Riding is much more fun than math.

 

[Redman]

I still can't see how anyone gets past their first bicycle ride without knowing this.

Yah, me too. It's just how two-wheeled vehicles work, and I have never understood the need to explain it, let alone argue about it as I have seen in the past.

Brian, Tom,

Since you are both guys that I have meet and have talked to; I hope you do not think I am arguing with you.

BUt you have metioned the specific aspect of countersteering that got my interest in the past. Not agruing, but further discussion. Or maybe we should discuss it further on next personal meeting. Or maybe dont really care to disscuss it. THe aspect that someone can be countersteering and not realise what they are doing.

Realtive to that subject; This is the expereince I have had with that in the past:

I have asked people to explain to me how they turn while they are running. Most people jgive me a starteled look because they think I am a dork for asking and maybe because they realise that they dont have an answer but obviously they can turn when running but can not explain how. Anyway, if they have anything to say it is something "ah, I just turn. Ah, I learned to walk at age one and learn to run right after that, like most any other kid."
About as close of an explanation might be like Someone might say "ah, I have to think about it, dont really have a plan, but, ah, I quess take smaller steps inside and longer steps on outside."
Maybe a trained athelete might have something more to say.

I actaully ran and turned and tried to notice what I was doing, but thinking about it probabaly altered what I was doing. So had to do it multiple times. But I think what I did was that a step or two prior to the turn I would bend the inside knee a little more (making that leg shorter) to get me to start to lean a bit and might also step the outside foot out a little wider to get to lean more (hey, that is countersteering) and then push off with the outside foot to go more in the direction of the turn. So before turning I would do something to start the lean, then more lean, then do what had to to turn. And then I thought that, hey, I learned to do that at maybe age one, and have been doing that for years, but never undertood what I was doing, but I was doing it.

And then at some other age (5? 7?)learned to ride bycycle.

And then after I thought I learned how to ride motorcycle (age 27, no instruction, no mentor, no prior expereince) by leaning to steer at speed,
.........and running off the road wide a couple times,
.........and seeing stones in a curve and just hopeing I didnt hit them
.........and going wide into other lane
.........and .... and.... all in first couple months....
I was thinking that no wonder so many are killed on these things, aint no good way to controll it, and was about to sell the bike and get a boat or take up golf.

To make the story (ah, testimonial?) a little shorter; countersteering saved my motorcycling.

.

 

[Pete Logan]

Pete your head should look inside on a turn. Your bike will always tend to go where you look. You're confusing the heck out of me. I fail to see why you need to trick your hands into countersteering by moving your head.

I do. It was just a trick to relearn. I dropped it after a day or so.

By move your head I mean like 1/8 inch and only for the fraction of a second it takes for the turn to start.

I found it useful just to appreciate how little pressure is needed and avoid over-turning.

 

[reddirtrider]

I do. It was just a trick to relearn. I dropped it after a day or so.

By move your head I mean like 1/8 inch and only for the fraction of a second it takes for the turn to start.

I found it useful just to appreciate how little pressure is needed and avoid over-turning.

I'm glad you look through the turn properly Pete. It's very important. Also, the use of throttle and more countersteering in a turn will adjust your line. I particularly like to use throttle at the mid point and let the bike pull itself up to vertical as I exit.

 

[Pete Logan]

I'm glad you look through the turn properly Pete. It's very important. Also, the use of throttle and more countersteering in a turn will adjust your line. I particularly like to use throttle at the mid point and let the bike pull itself up to vertical as I exit.

I use counter all the way through the turn. Easing off the counter and putting on throttle straightens the bike up on the way out. The apex is a little after you think, and late apexing is the best way to go on the road. It opens the turn.

We had a sport bike rider go down here a week ago 400 yards from my house because he apparently pushed hard through a turn only to find it tightened on him. He lost it, but I believe he will be OK.

 

[reddirtrider]

I use counter all the way through the turn. Easing off the counter and putting on throttle straightens the bike up on the way out. The apex is a little after you think, and late apexing is the best way to go on the road. It opens the turn.

We had a sport bike rider go down here a week ago 400 yards from my house because he apparently pushed hard through a turn only to find it tightened on him. He lost it, but I believe he will be OK.

Well, if you are pushing the limits through a turn you had better know the turn. I never ride to the edge of my limits on the street. It leaves no room for error, on your part, or finding someone in your lane while in a blind corner (we have those up here and it's happened to me).

 

[tone]

Ok
Ive seen counter steering discussed on a many forums many times & i have always come to the same few conclusions

#1 99.9% of riders counter steer wether they realise it or not

#2 of that 99.9% almost all will only counter steer a very small amount & for a very short period of time to speed up the transition from the bike being upright to the bike being leant over

#3 99.9% of riders will NOT be able to hold any decernable amount of counter steer right through a corner

#4 racers seen with the front wheel pointing off in what seems to be the wrong direction are NOT counter steering as we are discussing in this thread because what you are seeing here is more of a result of the rear spinning up & stepping sidewards to get the bike turned more quickly, anyone doing that on the road at speed should be out competing for moto gp points not on the forums

cheers tone

 

[Agemax]

#4 racers seen with the front wheel pointing off in what seems to be the wrong direction are NOT counter steering as we are discussing in this thread because what you are seeing here is more of a result of the rear spinning up & stepping sidewards to get the bike turned more quickly, anyone doing that on the road at speed should be out competing for moto gp points not on the forums

cheers tone

so CONTROLLED drifting is counter-counter steering then?

 

[tone]

so CONTROLLED drifting is counter-counter steering then?

It is but not really applicable in the context of this thread imo

As i read this thread it seems we are talking about mainly road riders & how counter steering can improve bike control on the road sliding around & walking the very thin line between the high side & the low side does not relate to the whole point of the thread imho simply because we dont, wont or cant do it on the road

 

[reddirtrider]

so CONTROLLED drifting is counter-counter steering then?

I do it all the time in the dirt and it's not countersteering. I've drifted the rear wheel on the street but it's at low speeds where countersteering isn't used. Also, on the street, once you start to drift you must stay with it an not back off the throttle or you may just high side the bike.

 

[reddirtrider]

Ok
Ive seen counter steering discussed on a many forums many times & i have always come to the same few conclusions

#1 99.9% of riders counter steer wether they realise it or not

#2 of that 99.9% almost all will only counter steer a very small amount & for a very short period of time to speed up the transition from the bike being upright to the bike being leant over

#3 99.9% of riders will NOT be able to hold any decernable amount of counter steer right through a corner

#4 racers seen with the front wheel pointing off in what seems to be the wrong direction are NOT counter steering as we are discussing in this thread because what you are seeing here is more of a result of the rear spinning up & stepping sidewards to get the bike turned more quickly, anyone doing that on the road at speed should be out competing for moto gp points not on the forums

cheers tone

I'd raise the percentage up on #1 and #2 to 100% since you cannot turn a motorcycle at speed withOUT countersteering.

I cannot offer a reasonable guess on the other 2.

On #4 the front tire always points in the direction you want to go.

 

[tkent02]

I'd raise the percentage up on #1 and #2 to 100% since you cannot turn a motorcycle at speed with countersteering.

?????????????????????????????????????????????????

What do you use, magic words?

 

[reddirtrider]

?????????????????????????????????????????????????

What do you use, magic words?

I don't understand the question. If you want to turn a motorcycle at speed you must use countersteering - there is no other way.

 

[tkent02]

I don't understand the question. If you want to turn a motorcycle at speed you must use countersteering - there is no other way.

Agreed, you wrote the opposite.

"I'd raise the percentage up on #1 and #2 to 100% since you cannot turn a motorcycle at speed with countersteering."

I bet you meant without countersteering.