FET r/r questions.

[Steve]

My wife's '82 850L has had some problems keeping the battery charged, in spite of a "new" r/r from Duaneage last year. I scoured eBay a month or so ago and landed one of the new FET regulators that came from a 2006/07 Kaw ZX10. Last night, I got some basline readings from the 'old' r/r before removing it from the bike, then wired the 'new' FET r/r in place to make sure it worked before going through the effort of bolting it into place.

Stator voltages are 78 +/-1 at 5,000 rpm.
Resistance readings are all within spec.
I am using 16-gauge wires from the stator to the r/r.
I am using 10-gauge wires from the r/r to the battery.
Here are the voltage readings at engine speeds: (this is after running for a bit to charge the battery a bit after starting the bike)

speed .old r/r . FET r/r
1000 .. 12.35 .. 13.00
1500 .. 12.70 .. 13.50
2000 .. 13.06 .. 14.55
2500 .. 13.40 .. 14.55
3000 .. 13.90 .. 14.55
3500 .. 14.40 .. 14.55
4000 .. 14.39 .. 14.55
4500 .. 14.36 .. 14.55
5000 .. 14.38 .. 14.55

Looks all kinds of promising, doesn't it?

I went through the effort of mounting it to the stock location on the bottom of the battery box. I have found it much easier (although tedious) to remove the battery box to access the r/r. After getting it all back together, using the SAME WIRES that I used for the test above, it would only get up to about 14.1 volts. I said to myself, "self, that's good enough", and took it around the block (about 10 miles). Never saw voltage go over 14.3 on the entire trip. Today we went for a ride with the Wing group. It was a rather warm day. She said that when it was cooler in the morning on the way to the meeting (about 70 degrees), it was showing about 14.1 volts, but later, when everything warmed up (low 90s), it would only occasionally reach 13.9. While riding through town, with the occasional use of brakes and lower speeds, it was dipping down into the mid-12s.

Now, with all this novel of a background, my question is ...
for those of you that have installed an FET r/r, have you seen the output change drastically with ambient temperature? :-k

.

 

[posplayr]

Your first set of voltage reading is what I would expect for the FET R/R improving charging at low RPM.

You never said if you fixed the first charging issue when the Honda was installed. If your connections were bad, swapping R/R's will not fix that.

I would think you don't have as good of connections as you might suspect. There is no good reason for the R/R internal reference be that sensitive to temperature. As I recall it was +.- 0.25 max IIRC.

Check how much voltage drop there is from the R/R (+) to the battery. It is probably well over 0.5V

 

[propflux01]

I have just installed the same FET R/R that you have. I ran it 'around the block' a few times, but tomorrow I do my Sunday ride, so with the 90 degree heat and longer riding, the test will be done. I Will repost with the results.

 

[reddirtrider]

Ambient temperature change shouldn't have much effect of FET R/R's, after all you're only talking a few degrees. Convection cooling is much more dependant on air flow. Is the R/R too hot to hold in your hand?

 

[Steve]

Your first set of voltage reading is what I would expect for the FET R/R improving charging at low RPM.

That is pretty much what I expected, so I went ahead and bolted it into place. I also know better than to assume that things work without testing them in their final setting, hence the "round the block" test.

You never said if you fixed the first charging issue when the Honda was installed.

The Honda unit was installed early last summer and yes, it fixed the problem that existed at the time. It was a six-wire unit, and the sense wire was connected to a terminal strip that is powered by a relay that is switched by the ignition key. Toward the end of last riding season, it was not charging as well as it used to, so I cleaned all the connectors, replaced some and still did not find the improvement that I wanted. I saw all the improvements that were being reported with the FET r/r, so decided to try one.

I would think you don't have as good of connections as you might suspect. ... Check how much voltage drop there is from the R/R (+) to the battery. It is probably well over 0.5V

I know I should not assume, and I have not actually measured it yet, but the FET r/r has male spade terminals in its connectors, I used fresh female spade connectors, fresh 16-gauge wires, fresh connectors to mate up to the stator, fresh 10-gauge wires and connectors to connect the r/r to the battery. With all those FRESH connectors and wires (properly crimped, I might add) I doubt that the voltage drop is as high as you think. And, as I mentioned in the original post, I used the same wires for the test and the install. I measured out the proper lengths of wire and crimped all the connections just so I could test it to see if it was a good as everyone was saying. It appeared to be, so I went ahead and bolted it in. The ONLY difference besides actually using bolts to hold it in place is that I filled the cavity around the spade connectors with silicone to seal them off before installing it. Could that have made a difference?

Is the R/R too hot to hold in your hand?

I don't know. I do have an infrared thermometer that I can check it with tomorrow. Gonna go up to CafeKid's place to meet with Griffin and LarryD, so I will have a chance to check it.

 

[BassCliff]

Hi Mr. Steve,

In theory, practice and theory are the same. But in practice they're not.

Silicone? Instead of dielectric grease? I found this in a forum...

Almost all of the commonly available "silicone sealants" utilize a cure
chemistry that releases acetic acid vapor during the curing cycle that is
initiated by exposure to moisture in the air. This is why these materials
smell like vinegar as they cure. These materials are totally unsuitable for
any electronic use (potting, sealing conductors or enclosures, etc) and
should not be used in contact with any electrical circuitry.

General Electric makes a special line of Electronic Grade RTV silicones
(RTV160, RTV162, RTV167) that utilize a cure chemistry that releases
alcohol vapor during curing. These materials can be used for potting
and sealing bare conductors and other electronic uses, but are quite
a bit more expensive than the household sealant type RVT silicones.


I hope you get it sorted out.


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

 

[propflux01]

My unit had the plug cavity's where the spade terminals were originally supposed to be inside a connector that plugged into the R/R. I used Aircraft spade terminals, professionally crimped, then turned the unit upside down and filled her up with epoxy. No corrosions gonna get in there now!

 

[spyder2120]

i installed my fh012 r/r last night. it hung around 13-13.5v at the terminals at idle with and without the headlight on (highbeam). at 2000 rpm's it hit 14v and stayed there up to 6000rpm's was very satisfied. and oops i used high temp copper rtv to seal it up... wish you guys had talked about this yesterday afternoon. lol. hopefully it will be ok for a month until i can get the plug in connectors i read about in the r/r thread...... a day late, and a dollar short. lol.

 

[Nessism]

I work for an aerospace parts supplier and when we seal electrical wires a special non-acid type silicone is used as Cliff has noted. I don't think the silicone is the cause of the issue though.

As a side note to Steve, what kind of spade terminals did you use? All the ones I've seen that are wide enough to mate with the male terminals on the R/R are for large gauge wire. I have one of those FET R/R's in waiting and need to sort out the terminals ASAP.

 

[Steve]

Almost all of the commonly available "silicone sealants" utilize a cure
chemistry that releases acetic acid vapor during the curing cycle that is
initiated by exposure to moisture in the air. This is why these materials
smell like vinegar as they cure. These materials are totally unsuitable for
any electronic use (potting, sealing conductors or enclosures, etc) and
should not be used in contact with any electrical circuitry.

Yeah, I know about the acetic acid in the silicone, but the black sealer I used does not have that vinegar smell, and I have used it before with good success, so I did not/would not suspect it, but it's still a possibility. I will have to look at the label closer to see if it has any precautions about that.

I used Aircraft spade terminals, professionally crimped, then turned the unit upside down and filled her up with epoxy. No corrosions gonna get in there now!

What is it about them that makes them "aircraft" spade terminals?

Any time I read that something was "professionally done", my cynical side shines through.
"Professional" is no guarantee that they were good at it, only that they got paid for it.

I thought about the epoxy thing, but it was late and I wanted to get to bed. Probably could have used the 5-minute epoxy, if I could have found my bottles.
It stinks being away from my mess for several weeks at a time. I forget where I lost the stuff last time.

... hopefully it will be ok for a month until i can get the plug in connectors i read about in the r/r thread. ...

I guess I will have to re-read that thread to see what connectors are mentioned.

.

 

[spyder2120]

steve, sorry i had my threads crossed; along with web sites... anyways, the company that sells them is eastern beaver co. they are furukawa .250 connectors $19.95 a pr. part# 3P250WPK-FEQLW. www.easternbeaver.com go to wiring connectors, then sealed connectors, scroll down to furukawa sealed connectors click it and its about half way down the page.

 

[posplayr]

Steve,
I dug up the spec sheet for the FH012AA, and it is designed to operate out to 80 deg C which is essentially the upper end of the Extended temp range for commercial electronics (-40 to +85 degC).

The output "set-point" is specd at 14.1 - 14.9 with a typical of 14.5 and a temp coefficient of 3 mV/Deg C so you should perhaps see a output voltage change in output of 0.003x20= 0.06V change going from 20 degC up to 40 deg C.

http://www.shindengen.com/resources/content/1/1/1/1/documents/FH012 Data.pdf

Basically if connected correctly the R/R voltage output should never be outside of the 14.00 to 14.99V range. Of course depending upon how good the connections are the voltage at the battery can vary as has been discussed numerous times. Given you were seeing voltage that was less than 13V at times, I think it is a bad connection someplace.

As far as connections are concerned, I had limited space and so took a path partially due to that constraint but also one for expediency. After cutting down the connector housing, I bent over the male spades in the R/R unit and drilled them. I hooked wires from the stator and the harness through the holes for good mechanical hold and soldered them straight to the connectors.

As fate would have it after all of this direct connection and care for good connections my FET R/R got hot because the Electrosport connector I robbed from a new Electrosport R/R had bad crimps .

Even though I cut back the connector shroud, I never covered the open end of the spade contacts as it provides a convenient place to measure the R/R voltages.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showpost.php?p=965431&postcount=33

 

[Steve]

I work for an aerospace parts supplier and when we seal electrical wires a special non-acid type silicone is used as Cliff has noted. I don't think the silicone is the cause of the issue though.

Nice to hear that the silicone might not be the problem. I have used some crimp-on connectors that have butyl-filled heat-shrink sleeves on them. That what you are talking about? Nice stuff, just don't have any of them here.

As a side note to Steve, what kind of spade terminals did you use? All the ones I've seen that are wide enough to mate with the male terminals on the R/R are for large gauge wire. I have one of those FET R/R's in waiting and need to sort out the terminals ASAP.

I just used generic female spades from Auto Zone, Radio Shack, Parts Express, wherever. I usually use spade connectors that have insulation covering the entire connection on both the male and female sides, making a nice weather-resisttant junction. In this case, I did remove the insulation that covered the female spade because it was a bit too large to fit. These were the "blue" connectors, so they are good from 12- to 16-gauge wire. For the battery connections, I used a couple of "yellow" connectors with 10-gauge wire. Those did not have insulation over the spade part, just the crimp area, so I left that on there.

steve, sorry i had my threads crossed; along with web sites... anyways, the company that sells them is eastern beaver co. they are furukawa .250 connectors $19.95 a pr. part# 3P250WPK-FEQLW. www.easternbeaver.com go to wiring connectors, then sealed connectors, scroll down to furukawa sealed connectors click it and its about half way down the page.

Thanks, Spyder, got your PM on that, too. Will be checking into it shortly.

Ambient temperature change shouldn't have much effect of FET R/R's, after all you're only talking a few degrees. Convection cooling is much more dependant on air flow. Is the R/R too hot to hold in your hand?

Just got back from CafeKid's place. It's a couple of miles from his house to the freeway, six miles on the freeway, then a couple of miles to my house. Got out my infrared thermometer, held it as close as I could to the r/r and got 115 degrees F. Considering it's not in direct air flow (under the battery box) and it's 90 degrees out, I don't think that's too warm.

When we left for CafeKid's place this morning, her voltmeter (which is accurate, by the way) was reading about 14.1. By the time we got there (20-minute ride) it was only mid-13s at 3500 rpm. Slow down to idle at a stop light, it's back down to mid-12s and slow to rise back up.

I will be trying a couple of things before going through the effort of removing the battery box again. One thing is to replace the connectors on the stator wires, too. That way I will know that all of the connectors are new and fresh.

Letting the bike cool down a bit so I can work on it, will report back later.

.

 

[propflux01]

What is it about them that makes them "aircraft" spade terminals?

Any time is read that something was "professionally done", my cynical side shines through.
"Professional" is no guarantee that they were good at it, only that they got paid for it. .

Because they are certified for use in aviation connections. Not made in China.

I have worked in aviation going on 22 years. I (and others in my trade) consider myself qualified enough at it to be called a professional.

 

[Steve]

Because they are certified for use in aviation connections. Not made in China.

I have worked in aviation going on 22 years. I (and others in my trade) consider myself qualified enough at it to be called a professional.

Yeah, I have been in my profession for 20 years, but still see too many others doing the work in a "professional" manner that is not even worthy of Red Green.

.

 

[propflux01]

I think my work speaks for itself. Haven't had one fall out of the sky yet.

 

[propflux01]

She said that when it was cooler in the morning on the way to the meeting (about 70 degrees), it was showing about 14.1 volts, but later, when everything warmed up (low 90s), it would only occasionally reach 13.9. While riding through town, with the occasional use of brakes and lower speeds, it was dipping down into the mid-12s.

Now, with all this novel of a background, my question is ...
for those of you that have installed an FET r/r, have you seen the output change drastically with ambient temperature? :-k

As the promised update, Mine worked almost exactly as yours did with one exception: I never saw 14.1 volts at any time. mine went to 13.8 and stayed rock steady there, until I idled, like at a stop sign with brake on. Like yours, it would dip down into the low 12's. The old regulator I had on before the FET swap (since my stator went out, wasn't sure if old R/R was bad, so i hooked it up first, until my new FET came in) worked very similar with the new Ricks stator that I purchased, with exception being I got 14.4 volts at speed with it. When i changed it out to the FET, it worked Identical sans the 14.4 volts, that, as previously stated, went down to 13.8. In my case, I am figuring the stator is not as strong as the old one was before it took a dump. the old one would never go below 13V at idle, and when I used my aux rear brake/tail lights at would stay at 13.5 to 13.8V at speed. With new stator, it goes down to 13.0. One thing I did notice on the ricks stator was the lack of epoxy on the finished windings, my old one was from Dennis kirk, bought in 2005, and looked like those blue 'beauty's' you see on EBAY (Electrosport?). My Ricks one looks like it just uses the insulation on the wire and thats it. Maybe thats the way it supposed to be, or considered 'acceptable', but considering the output of my old stator, VS the new Ricks, I am not impressed by it. please note my negative connection goes from R/R to frame ground, then from that same ground goes straight to the battery NEG. none of the wires over about 8-10 inches long. POS goes to the bike wiring -- The big "T" that goes one way to the battery, and the other way to the IGN switch/fuse box.

I don't know why yours went to 14.1 at a lower temp, but I would think maybe because it was charging the battery alittle harder after you used the starter, and after you ran for awhile the battery was fully charged and didn't need the 'extra' voltage?

 

[Steve]

Congratulations on many jobs well done. :clap:

Hopefully you are not taking my comment as a personal attack, it's just my cynical side showing through.
I also listen to advertisements with the same attitude. One of my all-time favorites:
"Nothing works better than Bayer (aspirin)."

I say "Fine, give me the 'nothing'. You just told me it works better than Bayer."

Yeah, it's a twisted view, but you haven't met me (yet).

.

 

[propflux01]

Well, maybe just lucky so far!

No personal attack taken, however, like you, i work with some real 'professionals' that I would not trust to take out the garbage without F*****g it up somehow! when I work on something I strive to ensure that every detail is checked and checked twice, and if I don't know, I will research or ask. Aviation is no place to be lax, and I could never live with the thought of someone losing their life because of what I had done. And yes, I will fly confidently on ANYTHING that I work on! Your view may be 'twisted', but is very understandable and logical. An example of this is a few weeks ago I saw a sign shoe-polished on the back of a pickup truck. It spoke volumes! It said:

There is no "I" in teamwork, but there is a "U" in stupid! :lol:

I do hope that the information given in my previous post has helped in some way towards your issue.

 

[Steve]

I don't know why yours went to 14.1 at a lower temp, but I would think maybe because it was charging the battery alittle harder after you used the starter, and after you ran for awhile the battery was fully charged and didn't need the 'extra' voltage?

First thing tomorrow, I am going to change the connectors between the stator and the r/r. The connectors on the stator are the bullet connectors that Duaneage put on. I added matching bullets to the wires that go straight to the r/r. I am going to change these to all new spade connectors on the chance that the tension in the connectors has deteriorated over the last year.

It has been my experience driving many different types of vehicles over the last 40 years or so, that output voltage is usually just a bit higher at cooler temps. In the case of an alternator, there is usually a temperature compensation circuit because a hot battery should not be charged as high as a cooler one. In the case of our charging systems with magnets, stators and R/Rs, I think the lower output is simply a result of higher resistances in the system when the temps go up. Also, after the drain of starting the battery, the voltage will be a bit lower as the charging system struggles to charge the battery. When the battery is charged enough that it does not demand all of the charging system's output, the voltage will rise and will actually be the highest when the battery is fully charged.

.