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ghetto manometer!

  • Thread starter Thread starter seuadr
  • Start date Start date
Well technically you are correct that the steady state levels of the fluid in the tube are only based on the pressure differential and the amount of head produced by the column height differential (i.e. density of the fluid and height). However in the case of usability, if you blip the carbs, it will take longer to evacuate that larger volume over the ATV than if the tube was narrower and so you have longer to react (i.e. back off the throttle). With narrow tubes, it is virtually impossible (ask me how I know). :oops:

I worked out the equations recently and basically the ratio of volume in the standing tube to area of hose represents the electrical equivalent of capacitance (If I remember correctly; I'll post the results if i can find it) and given this works against some flow resistance in the line there is the equivalence of a RC filter which provides the dampening but also will delay the rise in the column according to the same linear filter theory.

Taking this to the extreme with a simple example, should make the effect more clear. If you basically have two large several cubic feet of air space above each column of ATF, yes the ATF level will approach the level required to balance the pressure above the fluid, but restrictions in the flow of either ATF fluid between the tubes and or air above the fluid in exhanging through a small tube will create the RC filter effect I have described and so it takes a while for pressures to equalize even though the ultimate levels are independent(your initial point) of the capacitance.

You will note that the fluid tubes and tee's below the manometer are much smaller than the standing tubes as well as the size of the vacuum hoses above the fluid. I suspect this has very good damping properties due to both forms of capacitance.

Posplayr

Are you a EE?

Makes sense to put a vacuum reservoir over the liquid. Not having balanced carbs yet, I didn't recognize the danger of getting the fluid moving with sudden throttle changes. This should tend to reduce bouncing too.

A similar stabilizing effect could be achieved by spooling some extra tubing on the ground to increase the total fluid inertance of the ATF, or using a larger reservoir. Maybe pull water from a filled gallon jug. I remember "Inertance" is the term for the fluid version of inertia, which is mathematically analogous to inductance, IIRC. So we're looking at something like an RCH filter if we ignore the, uh, elasticity of the vacuum above our liquid, right?

A few loops full of vacuum would make some vacuum reservoir too. I don't know if the extra tubing would be more or less cost effective than the fittings, etc. necessary for for adding flow restrictors, or those nice fat graduated cylinders, or connecting the lines together at the bottom.

Thanks for the heads-up on getting the liquid moving. I'll have to remember when the time comes (probably later this summer).

..."full of vacuum". What a concept.
 
Full of Vacuum

Full of Vacuum

"I resemble that remark" Archie Bunker, All in the Family



I remember "Inertance" is the term for the fluid version of inertia, which is mathematically analogous to inductance, IIRC.



http://www.diracdelta.co.uk/science/source/i/n/inertance/source.html


<B>
<H1>Inertance
</B>

Inertance is the ratio of an acceleration-like quantity to a force-like quantity when the arguments of the real (or imaginary) parts of quantities increase linearly with time.
</H1>
I had never heard of that before. It looks more like an equivalent to mass (i.e. F=ma ==> 1/m=a/F equiv. inertance).

m is basically a force scaler to determine acceleration, so there is no other dynamic than implied by the pure integrations of acceleration,a, to position x. (i.e. a=dv/dt, v=dx/dt ==> a = dx2/d2t)

Inductance ,L, has a single integration V=L (dI/dt) and capacitance ,C, a similar I = C (dV/dt). I guess mathematically we could have used either and equivalent of C or L for the accumulator analogy. C seemed more natural.

I have formal training as EE but have had one senior level fluids course (30 years ago), but have had to stay somewhat abreast of fluid and aerodynamics principles for doing aerospace related controls work. This of course is in addition to my detailed study of the subject to improve my own windsurfing equipment (20+ years ago)

There are any number of ways to add more damping, the real issue is practicality. The little twist valves I assume work well is they can close off the flow enough relative to the volume of air in the vacuum lines.

When I first ran into this problem (again about 20 years ago) one of the engineers I worked with at the time told me to add some accumulators in line with some vacuum guages that were bouncing too much. I took some pieces of 2" diameter PVC pipe (1 ft long), and duck taped the vacuum line into either end. I put this in line with the gages. This added significant damping from the what had been nothing but bouncing needles before.

Posplayr
 
i think im gonna do something like that for mine....

nothing fancy.. just need to balance them all correctly
 
Rusty

Rusty

So how does it work? It is not clear what you did to reduce the needle bounce.
Posplayr
 
wow another michigander! i'm gonna be in port huron memorial day weekend visting the feast of st. clair in the park there! :)
 
hopefully.. been having issues with it, only thing i have not done yet is check/shim the valves which i will be doing this weekend.. if that doesn't fix it, i'm at a complete loss for what to do
 
hopefully.. been having issues with it, only thing i have not done yet is check/shim the valves which i will be doing this weekend.. if that doesn't fix it, i'm at a complete loss for what to do
got a few shims at the house.
what issues?
 
http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=124580
is the current thread, but in a nutshell, 1 and 2 are not firing properly, they do eventually get warm, but initially, the bike is running on just 3/4. i've already checked and swapped coils, gone through the carbs twice, resynced them twice, and ajusted the idle.it goes from running a little lean on 1 and 2 to fouling them with gas. someone suggested ajusting the timing.. but i have no idea how to do that. after some suggestions and reading, i think possibly my valves need ajusting.. gonna take a look at them this weekend, as right now i don't have the bike where i live ( no garage :cries:)
 
Here's another cheap syncher: http://faq.ninja250.org/index.php/Is_there_a_carb_sync_tool?

The advantage of this design is that the sucking of sync fluid into the engine is *impossible* and the pulsing is greatly buffered.

Since some of you have stated that being able to sync all 4 carbs at one time is most ideal, I'm trying to think about how to build a 4 bottle version. I'll have to ruminate on that one for a while. Any of the big brains here have some input?
 
So I read through all 6 pages of this and came to the conclusion the last one posted will probably work best.

Im gonna make a version of that for 4 carbs at once, and be sure to post lots of pics of it when I do. Probably this week as my new jets and gaskets should be here any day now.
 
if you had 4 cheap vacuum gauges, couldnt you just hook one up to each carb and do the synch that way???

I made one 20 years ago that way. I tweaked each gauge to get the same reading when put on my car one at a time and then made a small mount to hold them. The actual amount of vacuum is not important, just that they respond equally and evenly.

I paid 40 dollars for my motionpro mercury stick gauge, worked for me.
 
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