misunderstanding, ripoff or am I just thick.

[Guest]

This is an issue between me and a fellow gsr poster "RAPIDRAY"

REgarding the 1150/katana I built for someone in Calgary.

About 5 months ago, I was looking for stock gs1150 cams and he sold me on gsxr cams. Was told they were bolt in and gave real good performance boost. I explained they were for someone's bike I was building and they had to be reliable. Buddy wanted a bike he could ride for 20,000 miles and not worry about. "They are" he said.

They show up. Gsxr cams are single journal cams and shorter than a gs. The first issue was the cam castings had to me machined as to not damage the unused portion of the cam journals. There were hi spots. Two, they are shorter cams and only cover part of the end journal oiling hole.

Ray said this is not a problem. I disagree. I believe the oil is going to shoot out of the path of least resistance and the end journal will not be receive sufficient oil and it will lead to failure. I explained to Ray I couldn't in good concience put them in someone elses bike expecially someone who lived over 1000 miles away and I couldn't help if there was an issue. I explained this was not a performance engine.

On the phone I told ray they were coming back and I was hoping he would refund the purchase price (125.00) as he was not keen on that idea on the phone. I sent them back anyway hoping he would make it right. I ate the shipping (both ways)

He alludes he had no idea they were coming back? I don't understand what that has to do with anyway.

I am posting this to hear your comments. Maybe I am wrong.

Rays last response.

"Rob, I never agreed to buy them back. I explained how they DO work & you chose not to use them You never even notified me they were coming back. They just showed up here one day. I was kind of miffed about you not even bothering to contact me about sending them back. They are good cams with absolutely NO issues with them & I will send them back so you can sell them to someone if you want but then I get to eat the shipping I suppose? I just think it wasn't right of you to decide you just didn't want to use them & then sent them back without notifying me first. It wasn't MY issue that you decided not to use them. Do you understand MY side of this too? Believe me, I am NOT a thief nor do I rip off or screw people. I don't want you to feel I screwed you but I have been waiting to hear from you about this. I hope we can work something out but I have never been one to refund money on parts that are GOOD. Do you see MY point in this? I am sure you are a good person & I hope we can work this out because I don't like anyone to harbor ill feelings toward me. That is the BIGGEST reason I make SURE the parts I sell are indeed GOOD parts. How can we come to terms? Ray."

 

[Guest]

Thanks for the PM. I agree.

it took Ray a very very long time to actally deliver the cams. I was beginning to think they wouldn't show up.

 

[Go Mifune]

Wow tough call. But if Ray just gives the original payment back and gets his cams back it would be like this never happened kind of like hitting the reset button. No harm no foul.
1 vote for KATMAN

 

[Nessism]

We are all brothers here on GSR, best thing is for Ray to just bite the bullet and refund the cost. No real loss on his part unless he lost a sale to someone else while you had the cams.

 

[Guest]

The ONLY thing I can think of for this attitude is he didn't have the cams and had to source some out and payfor them. It took weeeeeeeeks and weeeeks to finally get them. HE did apologize for the long delay in shipping.

IF this is the case and he had said it up front then we might have something to discuss.

My biggest issue is the end journals. The cams don't cover the oiling port so how can the end journal be properly lubricated. I wasn't going to risk killing someone else's head.

 

[KiwiGS]

+1 Katman.
I respect your integrity.
You were not prepared to put something into the bike you didnt think would work.
You explained why you thought the part was not suitable. And you sent it back. In my book you get your money back mate.
Cheers

 

[rapidray]

The ONLY thing I can think of for this attitude is he didn't have the cams and had to source some out and payfor them. It took weeeeeeeeks and weeeeks to finally get them. HE did apologize for the long delay in shipping.

IF this is the case and he had said it up front then we might have something to discuss.

My biggest issue is the end journals. The cams don't cover the oiling port so how can the end journal be properly lubricated. I wasn't going to risk killing someone else's head.

As far as the oiling concern goes I explained to Rob that it was NOT an issue & even gave him the name of a member on here who has them in HIS motor I built. NO problems at all. I have put over 7000 miles on my own 1150E with the same cams in it with NO problem. I felt he bought the cams & then just didn't want to try them. Does that make it MY fault? I don't think so, but he WILL get his money back less the shipping. I don't like anyone having hard feelings with me & I AM an honest person. I just know now not to do business with him again. Ray.

 

[KiwiGS]

As far as the oiling concern goes I explained to Rob that it was NOT an issue & even gave him the name of a member on here who has them in HIS motor I built. NO problems at all. I have put over 7000 miles on my own 1150E with the same cams in it with NO problem. I felt he bought the cams & then just didn't want to try them. Does that make it MY fault? I don't think so, but he WILL get his money back less the shipping. I don't like anyone having hard feelings with me & I AM an honest person. I just know now not to do business with him again. Ray.

I can see your point Ray and I dont think you were at fault. From what I have seen of your posts you know your stuff and you seem honest.
I am sure if you say it will work then it will work.
That said I just think it is refreashing to see a motor builder who is not prepared to do something he doesnt think is right. (there are some cowboys out there) Whether Katman was right or wrong about the cams isnt really the issue for me.
Good on you for offering the refund.
For what it is worth I think you were both trying to do the right thing.
Cheers

 

[TurboChris]

I don't understand........Ray has USED the cams....for an EXTENDED amount of miles....as has at least one of his customers.....he said they would work.......He says he KNOWS they work as advertised......once all this has been discussed and the buyer makes an decision to proceed.....and then decides he just can't quite believe that they will work after he receives them.......I don't know.....seems there was plenty of time here for someone to back out of the purchase rather then waiting till he had received them.....

"Ray said this is not a problem. I disagree."

I suspect Katman disagrees based on his understanding of oiling and how it is supposed to work.......My problem is that Ray is saying it is not a problem based on his observations of it having been sucessfully done on at least several occasions.....either Ray is Lying or Katman is not understanding the big picture....

I for one have met Ray and am pretty impressed with his knowledge and there seems to be anything but a lack of integrity on his end....I would not question it if he told me that he had used them for 7000 miles with no problem and so had a customer.......

But that's just me.......

Oh, and it's condidered pretty poor edicate to publish a private email without the consent of the sender.....and I really didn't see how it helped prove anything either.....

 

[QuaiChangKane]

Oh, and it's condidered pretty poor edicate to publish a private email without the consent of the sender.....and I really didn't see how it helped prove anything either.....

I don't know either party, and have never had the opportunity to trade with either of them online - I have no stake in this, nor is it my place to take sides.

But I have to agree with TurboChris - what necessitated that this issue be debated in this public forum? A lot of damage can be done to the reputation of either party in a situation like this. While we may not all be online "retailers", everyone involved in resurrecting, restoring, customizing, or merely prolonging the service life of old UJM's ends up trading online eventually. Misunderstandings happen, and it's always best to sort things like this out in person, either by PM, email, or (Bob forbid!), even by the old telephone.

I'm glad you guys have worked this out - I'm just of the opinion that the resolution was offered solely for the sake of protecting one's online reputation instead of through a true bi-lateral understanding of each party's concerns...

Pity, if so. I sincerely hope I'm wrong.


-Q!

 

[Steveb64]

Boy have you two got yerselves in a twist! :-D Having done the odd mod myself - I can see where BOTH of you are coming from!

Katman is to be applauded for having the integrity to NOT risk stuffing someone else's engine - and I have to say that I probably wouldn't have installed the cams either if the oilfeed holes weren't under the cams - if only because of the risk of pressure loss - and his worry about the cams not receiving enough oil is also fairly valid. I'd also be worried about the lack of bearing support too.

Ray - good man for agreeing to refund the cam costs! Errm - did you make CLEAR the fact that they would appear to NOT fit in the journals correctly?
And it does sound like he tried them - at least as far as sitting them into place. Again - I wouldn't have tried to start the thing either, if the fit was that far out.
I DID do a search on the web - and couldn't find ANY references to putting GSXR cams into a GS - plenty on swapping the entire GSXR head over (heard of a number of guys doing that over the years) - but not just the cams! - Except by yourself... ...another question (NO - I'm NOT trying to stir - I'm curious! :-s) - have you pulled the cams out on your bike to check the actual amount of wear in the journals (after 7500 miles)?

And having blown up the odd motor here and there - just because there aren't any apparent problems YET - doesn't necessarily mean there AREN'T any problems happening. 8-[

Frankly Katman, if I wanted some hotter cams - I'd fork out the readies for some proper aftermarket units, and not stuff around with the GSXR ones. It's not like they're hard to source! [-(

 

[p_s]

A pic or two would sort this out.

 

[Guest]

I emailed Ray before I posted and told him I was going to post this problem and let the masses decide either way. If I was wrong I can accept that.

AS far as the email, I posted it because it states his position clearly with out any personal infringment and I didn't want to misquote him.

If the setup fails it is a destroyed head. One or two instances of 7000 miles working doesn't commit me to risk someones cylinder head that buddy wantsw 20/30k miles out of.

I take partial responsibility as I should have researched it myself and I didn't. If I had known the cams were single journal and short I would have bought the g4 cams I was pricing with him instead.

This isn't an expensive special order.. its a couple used stock gsxr cams he said he had a few of. Whats the problem?? whats he out?? nothing.

If thats enough to deny a refund then so be it. We just do business two differnent ways.

 

[Guest]

Frankly Katman, if I wanted some hotter cams - I'd fork out the readies for some proper aftermarket units, and not stuff around with the GSXR ones. It's not like they're hard to source! [-(

I agree, I wasn't after performance improvement. I was after 1150 stock cams and Ray said he had some stock gsxr cams that will work.

He did tell me he had been running them for some time and a drag race buddy of his was running them with no apparent issues so I said ok why not.

 

[Guest]

As far as the oiling concern goes I explained to Rob that it was NOT an issue & even gave him the name of a member on here who has them in HIS motor I built.

I felt he bought the cams & then just didn't want to try them.

I just know now not to do business with him again. Ray.

Ray,
you told me the oiling issue wasn't a problem after I received them and called you with my concerns that they didn't fit one,(cuz of the castings interfering with the unused journal in the head) Remember you told me to just machine the excess off and two, the oiling deal.

It took almost two months to get the cams I was waiting on to finish a motor. The last thing I wanted was to have to source some more and push buddy's completion back even farther.

Believe me, if you had painted an acurate picture of what was involved with installing the gsxr cams I would have declined then and I would have just bought the G4's you priced out for me.

I believe I should have had all the info before hand to make the decision not once they were in my hand and then have you say... it will be ok.

I don't know you or your work. Why in the world would I trust your judgement over mine for someone else's property. Its my stamp on this thing not yours.

I am not questioning your ability or knowledge, I am just saying I don't know you and judging from your supporters your know your stuff. IF things were reversed I am sure from what people are saying about you that you would have come to the same conclusion if you were uncomfortable with something I told you.

Cuz after all, who am I anyway??

And Ray, My last word on this is to you. Don't want this to get tooo out of hand. It isn't personal, just business and I am truely sorry you feel as you do about doing business with me.

 

[Guest]

i dont see that anyone is "at fault", since both sides have valid arguments
but, i think it would be a nice gesture from the seller to offer a refund - purely though because it portrays a "customer-friendly" attitude
and the cams can be sold to somebody else someday, i assume, so no real loss of money, just as if the sale didnt happen in the first place

 

[tone]

Hmm its a difficult one this guys i wont say my opinion on putting gsxr cams in a gs head one way or the other as opinions differ on what can be done reliably & what can't, its down to the guy doing the build to decide

I do think the best solution would be for the cams to go back to ray & the cash back to katman that way nobody loses out :-D

 

[lecroy]

Wow.

Katman, I just gave away for free a set of very low mile 1150 cams. Others may feel you should get an award for doing the right thing, me I see it different. Personally, I would have just bought the OEM parts and been done with it. Why on earth you would risk putting something into a stock motor that is not stock OEM is beyond me. Then there is the question of why would you ever use used parts (like cams) in a rebuild? If it was for your own bike that you were tinkering with I could understand, but here is a person who trusted you with their motor. You should have never even considered going this direction!

After two weeks, why not call him up and cancel? It should have never came to this and it should not have been posted. Was the goal only to see if you could get your money back? Why damage someones rep for what was your fault. You did not do the research. You did not buy OEM, hel l you didn't even buy new?

I don't know Ray at all. If I ever make it out that way I will need to stop in and see what he's up to. I'm sure he was just trying to help and sounds like the price was fair. I will say that I seldom would take any used parts back. Shipping is normally a high percent of the sale on used GS parts. If the cams were bad, that would be a different story but sounds like they were checked.

You asked, I posted.

 

[Matchless]

Disputes do happen and reading this thread also showed that even if though there was a dispute, the members still handled it in a decent way. On other forums I have seen flaming and personal attacks that can do much more harm.

I personally have certainly had a heads up on this, as this again points out the difficulties when buying unseen.
Nothing beats having the item in your hands when buying.
I think good pictures and photos before the deal is a must when buying unseen. A seller should also point out any difference if they are able to and back it up with photos or a especially comparison photos if they can.

I feel a distance seller should in actual fact allow a return, say within 3 days of receiving as part of a sale, just because of the fact that he is selling unseen. Yes, I know, some buyers are going to try and rip someone off, but distance buying will always be more riskier unfortunately.

From my side congratulations on for keeping this dispute as civil as possible and finally coming to a satisfactory solution.

 

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Wow tough call. But if Ray just gives the original payment back and gets his cams back it would be like this never happened kind of like hitting the reset button. No harm no foul.
1 vote for KATMAN

Absolutely. Why wouldn't he agree to this? Especially after you ate shipping both ways. Not cool.