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Ring job Questions

  • Thread starter Thread starter Dizzixx
  • Start date Start date
D

Dizzixx

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So I have a 77 GS 750. Thats the 2valve per cyl motor. It has been bored over 100cc using a wiseco kit. I had this professionally done a while ago. I replaced all the gaskets last season to take care of the leaks here and there and I guess I didnt let the oil circulate sufficiently after putting it back in and starting it up because now it blows smoke like nobodies business.

I cant afford to pay someone else to do this so I would like to do the ring job myself. I have never done this before but I do all my own automotive wrenching.

What should I know/what do I need before I get started.

Thanks in advance for your advice
 
Dizzixx said:
I guess I didnt let the oil circulate sufficiently after putting it back in and starting it up because now it blows smoke like nobodies business.
Click to expand...

This makes no sense at all.
Circulate the oil?
The professional who did the engine probably put rings in it. Something else isn't right.

When does it smoke? What color smoke?
How does it run otherwise?
Any funny noises?
 
My guess is who ever did the gaskets for you damaged a ring when they put the cylinder down (assuming the base gasket was replaced). You will have to pull the entire top end off and look for cylinder damage. Assuming everything is okay, it's pretty easy to replace the rings and gaskets after a good bottle brush hone job. Fingers crossed that nothing is damaged.

Good luck
 
Maybe I wasn't clear before.

It has the wiseco kit. That was done professionally and has about 6k miles on it. It was properly broke it and ran like a dream. I am a poor college student so I couldnt afford to have every little detail looked at. I made sure to take care of the important things. Valves, pistons, Dyna S ignition, etc. But I could not afford to have him do all the gaskets at the time just the top end ones.

Anyways those 6000 miles down the line on old gaskets and they went from a little leaky to like a faucet. So I bought new hardware on ebay and converted to hex head, and also bought gaskets for the oil pan, and both of the crank sides (clutch cover and magneto cover). I emptied the bike completely of oil to accomplish this.

When I got the bike it also had an issue with the oil filter. One of the bolts had been damaged by the PO and they used a screw (think wood screw) to hold it in place) I had a stud put in but it sometimes has issues.

When I was done putting everything back together the stud gave me a hard time but I thought I had it tight enough. Turns out i was wrong and ended up with oil all over the floor. I caught it quick. Drained it again. Messed with the oil filter until I got it right this time. Then filled it up and started her up again. It was not warm yet and had been completely drained of oil for probably a week for two. Anyways without thinking in my excitement I revved it some. Not to redline or anything but a fair bit. Now it smokes. I have seen and smelt this smoke before also the bike sounds different and doesn't pull as hard. I know it's the rings. I have always heard people say it should be blue but I have honestly never seen blue smoke as a result of burning oil past the rings it always looks white to me.

So back to my original question. What do I need to know to fix it.

PS- I did ride it some like this. It was my only transportation. I tried not to ride it hard but I must admit I probably got carried away more than once. I didn't ride it much but if this makes a difference in terms of what I should look into I would like to know.

I contacted wiseco to ask what rings I need to buy and they asked what stampings are on the pistons. There is only one kit they make for the 2 valve so that seemed like a rhetorical question. All the same I thought I would ask what I was getting into here before I tore into though.
 
So, you ran it and revved it with little or no oil. How long did you run it? How hot did it get?
Rings and cylinder walls need lubrication, you are lucky it didnt seize. Cylinders are probably scored, and your cam journals might be chewed up. It has a roller bearing crank that doesnt need that much oil so it should be ok.
 
I strongly suggest that you first run a compression test. If you have access to a leakdown tester, use that. It is more precise. Valve guide seals tend to smoke when you first start it up, but then stop (unless they are really bad). This is because oil will drip down onto the valve (or into the cylinder if the valve is open) when then engine is stopped. Not so much after it runs a bit.
If it is the rings you need to pull the head off and see if any cylinders are scored. If they are, it will have to be rebored and oversize rings installed. If not, and especially if you can see the honing marks in the cylinder, you can get away with the stock Wiseco rings. You can also check the cam journals at that time.
Since you had to pull the cylinder block to replace the base gasket, you already know what it takes. Another thing; when you had the cylinder block off, did you check the positioning of the rings? Each one needs to be 120 degrees away from the preceding one. Otherwise it will have blowby, which would cause it to smoke.
 
gearhead13 said:
So, you ran it and revved it with little or no oil. How long did you run it? How hot did it get?
Click to expand...

No, he didn't say that. It had oil in it. He just revved it up as soon as he started it. Not really good for the engine but a million people do it all the time, that isn't the problem.

Dizzixx, did you take the cylinders off when you resealed everything or just the other engine covers? If you did maybe you got an oil ring overlapped or something?

Again, When does it smoke? What color smoke?
How does it run otherwise?
Any funny noises?
 
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If I read him right, the pro did the top end 6000 miles ago. (#5, ?2), and he did everything else.
 
No I did not take anything else apart. Just covers. All the top end gaskets where fine (replaced during rebuild).

It smokes all the time a little. And alot when you goose the throttle. Just like you would expect shot rings to do.

Well I am hoping I can get away with stock rings. Who makes a further oversize piston and how much would that run me? Also hoping the cams arn't scored.

As far as the piston being scored; I should see circumferential or helical markings from the honing right? If they run longitudinal then those are wear from the piston/rings and they are ruined?

I am tearing into it today and will hopefully have pictures.

Thanks all.
 
You should not need new pistons, only rings. And you will have to go to Wiseco for that
First you need to do the compression test. If you are short on cash, rent one at an auto parts and take it back, it ends up being free. You must check compression.
 
Sitting on the bike facing forward. From left to right (I can never remember which is 1 and which is 4) the cylinders read 90 psi (plug looks a little lean), 90 psi (plug is very dark), 90 psi (plug is dark), and 70 psi (plus looks normal).

What gives?
 
Those readings indicate a compression leak. The "best" thing to do now is called a leakdown test. There are only 3 places you can be losing compression: the rings, the valves, or the head gasket.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leak-down_tester
http://www.harborfreight.com/cylind...-782A-E011-B31E-001B2163195C&mr:referralID=NA
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/DIY/Engine_Leakdown_Test.aspx

If your rings are leaking, you will hear/feel air escaping out of the crankcase by removing the oil fill plug.
If your exhaust valves are leaking, you will hear/feel air escaping out the exhaust.
If your head gasket is leaking, you will not be able to tell because it is an air-cooled engine.
AFA Wiseco needing to know the stampings on the pistons, they tend to make running changes in an effort to constantly improve. On a 25+ old bike, they probably made several changes.
 
Dizzixx said:
Sitting on the bike facing forward. From left to right (I can never remember which is 1 and which is 4) the cylinders read 90 psi (plug looks a little lean), 90 psi (plug is very dark), 90 psi (plug is dark), and 70 psi (plus looks normal).

What gives?
Click to expand...
These numbers are with open throttle on a hot engine?
 
Those numbers where me kickstarting it. (dead battery) and it not running. I couldnt afford to shell out 40$ for the leak down tester and the places around here don't lend them out, only let you use them in the parking lot.

Its apart now. Pictures to follow.
 
I'm thinking it just needs a good hard run.
It often works wonders.

Doh, I see it's apart now, I guess we are finished troubleshooting. Can't afford $40 for troubleshooting equipment but hundreds for unnecessary parts is OK. I see.

By the way, those compression numbers are very good for just using the kickstarter on a cold engine.
 
What about the one 70 psi thats 20 lower than the other three? That cylinder also appears to have more carbon deposit on the cylinder itself. I dont see significant scoring of any type on the walls and the gaskets all look immaculate.

I had ridden it a little harder up a canyon once while it was like this. A bunch of friends went on a ride and I couldnt resist. It did not pull as hard and you could see and smell the smoke. Did not sound different mechanically. The exhaust note was a little deeper (if I remember right). That didnt help anything.

I guess I will get the stampings off the piston and price the rings. If they dont cost to much I think I might just replace them since I have it all apart anyways and am fairly certain thats the problem. I still dont know why it just seems to have all the symptoms to me. (well according to you the compression should be lower but I have terrible luck with these things so who knows)

Sorry if I went at you in the other thread. I appreciate your help and am just frustrated. I dont see the rings going bad suddenly after doing a bunch of other things being related to the break in after 6000 miles.
 
Dizzixx said:
Sorry if I went at you in the other thread. I appreciate your help and am just frustrated. I dont see the rings going bad suddenly after doing a bunch of other things being related to the break in after 6000 miles.
Click to expand...

Nothing should hurt rings at 6,000 miles, unless it was run without oil or revved to 14,000 RPM, or maybe overheated by idling for a half hour on a hot day.
Are you sure it's not fuel smoke? There are a lot of causes for too much fuel to be going into the cylinder all of a sudden, like a stuck float, a piece of junk in the needle valve, or perhaps a jet fell out or something. By the way, a cylinder running super rich like this for a while will cause the compression test to read lower on that cylinder. Fix the carb and run it for a while, the compression will come back up. The carbon deposit on that cylinder points to this, as well.

We were not trying to **** you off, just trying to help you troubleshoot this thing to avoid taking it apart unnecessarily.
 
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