Set up Dyna S with static timing...no start?

[supergrafx]

Hello folks. I should have posted yesterday but thought I'd readjust my newly installed dyna s and have another go at trying to get the timing right before I made this an issue on the forums. Over the weekend I made a static timing light by soldering two wires to the (+-) of a 12v tail light. I rotated the rotor and adjusted the electronic points so that the static light first lights up when the full advance point on the advancer is lined up with the baseplate line. The static light stays lit until it reaches the "top dead" point of the assembly. So, the bulb stays lit from full advance, idle advance and top dead. Both 1-4, and 2-3 have been adjusted accordingly.

However, Bike doesn't fire up. Does the installation of a dyna s change the gap in the spark plugs? Would my "oldened" OEM coils better respond to the points than the new dyna s, and thus require to outfit those dynatek 3ohm whatever coils? I'm at a loss. The dyna s manual is very clear and I seem to have the system set up correctly. Don't know why I'm having issues. BTW, I have not laid my spark plugs on an engine casing or bought a spark plug tester, but think this although something I need to do soon, not an issue since I made sure the bike was firing up fine before I removed the kokusan point system and replaced with the dyna s.

Sorry for the long description. In summary, what should I do at this point?
77GS550 (4-1; stock airbox)

 

[Nessism]

I’m unclear what you are saying regarding the timing so just to recap…

The advance rotor has three marks for each pair of cylinders (1-4, and 2-3): T, F, and F-advance - this is the mark about 1 cm to the right of the F mark. With your test light hooked up to the 1-4 coil, and rotating the engine with the 19mm hex on the advancer, the test light should illuminate when the 1-4 F mark aligns with the indicator. Another way to test the timing, and the way Dyna states in the instructions, is to twist the rotor with your hand to simulate full advance, and then the test light should illuminate when the F-advance mark aligns.

I suggest you double check your timing, and make sure you have spark by watching a spark plug while spinning the engine over. Hopefully when you get this sorted the engine will fire.

 

[rapidray]

I'll bet you have the timing WAY advanced. Retard the timing plate by turning it CLOCKWISE about 1/4 inch in the screw slot & see if it starts. Ray.

 

[Guest]

You might of put the rotor on 180 off.

 

[Agemax]

set mine up statically with a bulb and it fired up first time.
when i connected a strobe light it was spot on. follow the instructions and you cant really go wrong

 

[supergrafx]

I?m unclear what you are saying regarding the timing so just to recap?

The advance rotor has three marks for each pair of cylinders (1-4, and 2-3): T, F, and F-advance - this is the mark about 1 cm to the right of the F mark. With your test light hooked up to the 1-4 coil, and rotating the engine with the 19mm hex on the advancer, the test light should illuminate when the 1-4 F mark aligns with the indicator. Another way to test the timing, and the way Dyna states in the instructions, is to twist the rotor with your hand to simulate full advance, and then the test light should illuminate when the F-advance mark aligns.

I suggest you double check your timing, and make sure you have spark by watching a spark plug while spinning the engine over. Hopefully when you get this sorted the engine will fire.

Ness, the bulb is illuminating on full advance. Before doing all this, I made sure to set it so that the light appears when the f-advance mark lines up with the fixed mark on the baseplate. The light stays lit as I continue to rotate the rotor hex bolt clockwise to the F mark which I've been shown is the idle advance, and furthermore continues to be lit until the Top Dead Center line, then cuts out, as I would expect it.

As far as "twisting the rotor with your hand to simulate full advance," that's one thing that confuses me about the directions. Once the dyna s rotor is on the advancer and bolted down with the large and small hex bolt, I can not turn the motor by hand. I need at least a wrench to grip the hex bolt. Is there supposed to free play to twist the rotor a full 360 degrees by hand only? If I rotate the rotor as is and not the advancer itself the rotor will turn 10 to 20 degrees but when I let go will snap back in place. I thought this to be normal. Am I wrong?

I'll bet you have the timing WAY advanced. Retard the timing plate by turning it CLOCKWISE about 1/4 inch in the screw slot & see if it starts. Ray.

Would full advance be too advanced Ray? full advance is where I have the light go on first when lined up with the fixed line on the baseplate.

You might of put the rotor on 180 off.

Chef, when I put the rotor on, I made sure that the magnet was pointing left and the 1-4 marks were facing upwards. When I snapped the advancer into place however, the advancer had to be snapped in upside down, so it is true that that is was 180 degrees away from rotating the engine so that the 1-4 marks were on top. Didn't think this would make a difference since the magnet is still pointed left to hit 1-4 first and 1-4 marks on the advancer are facing upwards...

 

[supergrafx]

set mine up statically with a bulb and it fired up first time.
when i connected a strobe light it was spot on. follow the instructions and you cant really go wrong

I wish I owned your skills as well as your bike Agemax. I followed the instructions and can't understand what I did wrong. It seems since the light comes on when full advance hits the fixed line and turns off when it hits the top dead center mark for both 1-4 and 2-3, I would be all good right? No need to rotate or the engine to a certain start point? Once I saw that the light was coming on and off at the given points for 1-4 and 2-3, I just hit the start button and nothing. Maybe I'll add some gas to the tank and pray that it fires up when I get home tonight. There seemed to be enough gas in the tank due to hearing some swish swish action but maybe I need to add more. The fact that this should be a simple set up and the fact that I'm stumped, makes me want to understand the faults of my mind... I feel stupid, since the stupid light is telling me that there is light, but no spark at the end of the tunnel.

 

[Agemax]

start from scratch mate. make sure you have enough gas in it, make sure you have it wired up correctly, have you taken a plug out and rested it on the engine to see if you are actually getting a spark?
did you disconnect the coil feed wire to plug your bulb in to check the timing then forget to plug it back into your coils again?
may sound like silly questions but you gotta make sure you got the basics right first.
did you buy a new dyna kit or a 2nd hand one? very rare they are faulty from the factory

 

[Nessism]

Something doesn’t seem right; the test light should not be on all the time, rather it should come on when the F mark aligns, or the F-advance mark aligns if you are holding the rotor against the springs to simulate full advance.

Did you hook up your test light like the Dyna instructions direct?

 

[supergrafx]

have you taken a plug out and rested it on the engine to see if you are actually getting a spark?

did you disconnect the coil feed wire to plug your bulb in to check the timing then forget to plug it back into your coils again?

may sound like silly questions but you gotta make sure you got the basics right first.
did you buy a new dyna kit or a 2nd hand one? very rare they are faulty from the factory

It was a new unit from Z1. I never disconnected the white coil for 1-4 or the black coil for 2-3. I forgot to mention, I soldered some radio shack alligator clips to the end of the +- of the wire leads soldered to the 12v bulb. I just clipped the positive to the white wire bullet junction with ground to engine fin and vise versa for the black wire which is 2-3 for my bike.

Something doesn?t seem right; the test light should not be on all the time, rather it should come on when the F mark aligns, or the F-advance mark aligns if you are holding the rotor against the springs to simulate full advance.

Did you hook up your test light like the Dyna instructions direct?

Ness, I don't know if I was clear enough but the light does not stay on all the time. It stays on only once the full advance hits the fixed mark and stays on only until the line before the T which a picture in front of me says is the TOP dead. Then the light goes off until about 180 degrees later when the 2-3 full advance hits the fixed line, then like 1-4, is on until the advancer gets to the TOP dead line of 2-3, then goes off again until the rotation goes back to 1-4 area.

But your response makes me think I may have this all wrong. Is there a point in the area for example between: lT lF l , that does not light up? From what your saying, is it that the light should not first come on when the full advance (line after the F, or about a centimeter to the right of F) comes on but rather should be set for idle advance which is the line right before the F? I thought this was wrong and to set the light for the full advance and not the idle advance.

Oh, I did connect the test light as the directions instructed. In my reply to
Agemax above, I state which wires for the coils I connected to and the use of alligator clips so I wouldn't have to splice the light in and could easily disconnect/connect the light to other areas easily.

 

[Agemax]

can you post a pic of the set up, it must look very similar to anybody else who has the same set up,like me for example. we may be able to see the problem that way

 

[POULSEN]

I did similar last year, and made a small instruction with pictures. Have a look at http://www.poulzen.dk/Upgrade to electronic ignition.pdf
I had no real problem, except i swithced 1-4 and 2-3 wire by mistake (black/white):-\\\ - could that be the problem for you as well..

BR
Stig

 

[supergrafx]

can you post a pic of the set up, it must look very similar to anybody else who has the same set up,like me for example. we may be able to see the problem that way

Agemax, This evening, I will go through the tests again and take pics. I'll post them tomorrow. I'll make sure I post pics of where I spliced from the 12v and the orange/white coils, ect...

I did similar last year, and made a small instruction with pictures. Have a look at http://www.poulzen.dk/Upgrade to electronic ignition.pdf
I had no real problem, except i swithced 1-4 and 2-3 wire by mistake (black/white):-\\\ - could that be the problem for you as well..

BR
Stig

Poulsen: I actually was using your guide in conjunction with the dyna s manual! I was thrilled when I found it in one of the forum threads, since the early 550's, there's not much info as much, plus you had the kokusan ignition like me, so the manual you made for me and others is like gold. Thank you so much. I don't think I have switched the black and white wires for the coils since black goes to black and white to white. But I will post pics tomorrow. I'm sure you guys will see things that my novice eye cannot see clearly upon. I'll be back tomorrow with the stuff. :/

~gabe

 

[supergrafx]

 

[supergrafx]

And one more of the static light I quickly put together using a spare tail light bulb (I probably should have used a regular bulb with one filament instead of two?)

 

[supergrafx]

Something doesn?t seem right; the test light should not be on all the time, rather it should come on when the F mark aligns, or the F-advance mark aligns if you are holding the rotor against the springs to simulate full advance.

Did you hook up your test light like the Dyna instructions direct?

I missed this from the directions. I originally just set it at the F-Advance mark without holding the rotor against the springs with my hand to simulate the full advance while it was at the F mark. I did however set it to have the light come on at the F mark, not the F-advance mark, previously, thinking this was incorrect, but it did not fire up either. I re-read your remarks and realized my error about turning the rotor with my hand to simulate the f advance while the f advance mark aligned with the backer plate line and it seemed to be trying to start, as long as I kept pressing in the start button on kill switch dongle, but still no go. I set 1-4 and 2-3 accordingly but nothing. I don't understand how those old points started the bike but the dyna-s is having problems. Before installing, like I said before, I made sure the bike could start. However, something else is going on with my bike since I needed full choke and there is consistant bogging. I guess I should be checking for spark. I've searched the web for laying a plug on the engine case to watch for spark like you suggested but can't find anything. Just found those spark plug testers things that attach between the coil and the plug to illuminate spark. I've been dead broke so although those seem to be pretty cheap, I've been unable to get them, at least until this coming friday. Should I do the coil relay mod? I'm no expert like you guys, but I would think that if the voltage was enough before to give the plugs enough spark to fire up with points, the dyna s, although the coil relay mod might be a great thing to do at some point, wouldn't need it just to get it started? Also, my engine supposably has around 8,000 or so miles, at least that is what the PO told me, who seems to be not the most trustworthy rich kid blah blah blah. I am sure that valve clearances have never been checked. What should I do next? As many of you know, I had the carbs rebuilt half-arsed by someone and am sure I need to go through them again, it's just common sense tells me to fix this first, I mean, get it started since I was able to start before before working from the ground up. I so need to conquor this.

 

[ryonker]

I just set up my dyna S last week. I hooked up the black and with wires into the harness. Then I did the splice into my orange and white wire that powers the coil. I was excited, tried starting it, and nothing.

I though I did everything right. Checked everything like you, tried again and nothing .

Then I wondered about the splice. I took it apart and saw that the lightly metal doohickey that pushes down into both wires DID NOT actually pierce the red wire going back to the dyna S ! So I took some plies and really reamed it down and pushed the plastic clip back down.

She started right up then !

My splice was bad.

Hope this helps!

Rick

 

[supergrafx]

I just set up my dyna S last week. I hooked up the black and with wires into the harness. Then I did the splice into my orange and white wire that powers the coil. I was excited, tried starting it, and nothing.

I though I did everything right. Checked everything like you, tried again and nothing .

Then I wondered about the splice. I took it apart and saw that the lightly metal doohickey that pushes down into both wires DID NOT actually pierce the red wire going back to the dyna S ! So I took some plies and really reamed it down and pushed the plastic clip back down.

She started right up then !

My splice was bad.

Hope this helps!

Rick

Hey Rick,
Thanks for replying. I didn't end up using the splice that came with the kit. I just tinned the copper ends and used spade connectors. I'm at work, but let me see, this is how I did it I think: I spliced into switched orange 12v rear brake light and perhaps twined the orange/white wire from the coils with the red wire leading back to the dyna s and tinned them as well. Then I crimped the spade onto the switched 12v and crimped the now twined red and orange/white. I decided to crimp instead thinking that I would use dielectric grease and liquid tape to seal the thing off from moisture. I guess I could have done the same thing with the provided splicer, but thought it would be the same.

 

[Guest]

Does it start when you apply the rear brake?

 

[supergrafx]

Does it start when you apply the rear brake?

Haven't tried that yet. Would that be beneficial since the power is switched and may only come on if I press in the brake to activate the switched power? Battery is dead right now and it's raining outside. I'll pull the battery out and recharge it inside the house and try that in the morning. I also thought I read somewhere on some post here, that someone said something like hold in the clutch might be mandatory to start up with a dyna-s. Maybe it was a dream but that's what I remember for some reason. I haven't tried that either. I have been trying to start the bike in neutral btw. Probably redundant to post this, but I've also primed the bowls a couple of times for 3-4 seconds before pressing start.