Starter circuit problem URGENT

[posplayr]

No polite way to say this: but, yes, it doesnt all add up .... what you are saying doesnt make sense.


Your statements about it should be "sending an earth signal to the soleniod" does not make any sence because that is not how it is suppose to work. (and the confusion not because because of calling it "earth" verses "negitive" verses "ground").
Is going to be difficult to determine what is abnormal, if you dont understand what is normal.

It will be hard to determine what is not working properly if you do not understand how it IS suppose to work.
I will repeat what I have stated before twice, but say it differently.
It is suppose to work this way:
Fuse puts power+ to the kill switch.
Then Kill switch puts power+ to the starter button (and the ignition).
Then Starter button puts power+ to the clutch swtich.
Then Clutch switch puts power+ to the solenoid.
The solenoid itself is mounted to the battery box which IS the ground-earth-negitive connection to the battery negitive (this requires that the battery box is in fact well grounded, which sometimes it is not and can be a problem, but not the problem you describe).

(I am assuming you have stock wiring. And if its not stock wiring, it is at least a negitive ground system.
Only positive ground system I have ever seen was on british & sweedisch & german cars from 50-60-70 years ago).

I think your bike had two problem that need to be investigated:
- why it draws high amps (heats up the wire, you say) but does not pull in the solenoid
and
- why the high amps doesnt blow the fuse.

Lets start with the high amps and solenoid not pulling in.
One way to troubleshoot a short circuit to ground (or other ecxessive high current) is to start at the intended load, the solenoid in this case, and dissconnect things one at a time, working your way back to the power source.
So, Disconnect the wire to the solenoid and hit the button (clutch swtich, ignition switch and all that) see if the high amps goes away, if it does go away it was the solenoid itself that was drawing all the amps.
If the amps dont go away, then you know it is something else along the way such as a short circuit to ground somewhere along the wiring or at one of the devices. So then go back to the clutch switch and disconnect that ... ... .... then maybe work your way to the starter button.

.

Forgetting any theory for the moment, if we take those three tests as good this is sounding more and more like a defective solenoid.

• If the screwdriver test drives the motor, the the primary cables are sufficent to run the starter motor.
• If the primary cable from the battery gets hot when activating the solenoid then the solenoid is shorting and is defective.

Replace the solenoid or disassemble and investigate.

Is solenoid OEM or off of another application?

 

[Redman]

...
....
The positive battey terminal wire gets the hottest.

...
....

Oh,
Ah,

All previous discussions were about the starter solenoid circuit, as if the solenoid was not picking up........

BY this you are saying the positve battery terminal is getting hot. Is that what you ment previously by a wire getting hot? I thought you ment a wire in the starter button starter soleniod was getting hot. All your statements about checking this and checking that was about checking the starter button starter solenoid circuit.

Maybe your starter button starer solenoid circuit (the small wires) is okay.

And your problem is more in the starter motor circuit (the thick wires) or the starter motor itself.

You started the posting by asking questions about the starter button starter solenoid circuit, so we assumed that is where your problem is.

There are two somewhat seperate circuits here. Each that need to be concidered seperatly. One circuit is the starter button starter solenoid circuit (thin wires). Other circuit is the main battery cable starter to solenoid (thick wires) to starter motor circuit.

ANy problem in the starter button starter solenoid curcuit (thin wires) that would heat up the battery cable would/should blow a fuse.

The starter motor (thick wires) circuit is not fused.

Back to what was asked before:
When you hit the starter button (with kill switch in run, and clutch pulled in) does the solenoid click? If so then the starter button starter solenoid is working.

Have you tried jumping the battery+ to the starter motor by jumpering acrost the two big terminals on the starter solenoid with a jumper cable? And if the starter motor runs, then the solenoid must have been bad.
If the motor doesnt run but still have the high amps heating the battery cable,
- maybe bad connection of battery cable (try cleaning the connection)
- or maybe the solenoid is shorting to ground (try disconnecting starter motor and see if still high amps)
- or maybe the starter is bad,

.

 

[posplayr]

Oh,
Have you tried jumping the battery+ to the starter motor by jumpering acrost the two big terminals on the starter solenoid with a jumper cable?

And if the starter motor runs,

He answered that before and the motor does run

then the solenoid must have been bad.

Apparently

 

[Redman]

Yep, he did one time say when jumper the solenoid everything is okay. So then would think the starter motor is okay.

Now that we know the "hot wire" is the battery cable (not the starter button starter solenoid circuit), and knowing he said hot wire was only when hit the starter button (and kill swith in run and clutch pulled in), that would seem like the starter button starter solenoid is okay and the solenoid is pulling in. So we can ignor all the talk of this and that earthing out in the starter button circuit.

So it seems that the starter solenoid is pulling in, but that is only half of the soenoids function. It seems it is the other half of the solenoids function that has a problem.

.

 

[tom203]

Yep, he did one time say when jumper the solenoid everything is okay. So then would think the starter motor is okay.

Now that we know the "hot wire" is the battery cable (not the starter button starter solenoid circuit), and knowing he said hot wire was only when hit the starter button (and kill swith in run and clutch pulled in), that would seem like the starter button starter solenoid is okay and the solenoid is pulling in. So we can ignor all the talk of this and that earthing out in the starter button circuit.

So it seems that the starter solenoid is pulling in, but that is only half of the soenoids function. It seems it is the other half of the solenoids function that has a problem.

.

Strange- if the solenoid clicks in , but doesn't pass current to starter motor, that current load should fry the solenoid.

 

[posplayr]

Strange- if the solenoid clicks in , but doesn't pass current to starter motor, that current load should fry the solenoid.

The only plausible explanation I can find is somehow the solenoid shorting bar is grounding out when the solenoid is energized. This assumes that the anwsers to the three questions are being reported correctly

 

[Counterpoint]

OK. A simple one. If im testing for resistance with a multi meter and i put one probe onto the wire that leads towards the starter button from the solenoid ((with the solenoid disconnected)(yellow/green)) and the other on the negative wire that connects to the battery terminal or any part of the frame for that matter (without the battery installed) and i press the starter button with the switch set to on and the clutch pulled in should i get a reading that indicated a complete circuit or should only the positive battery wire complete the circuit?

And just to add, rebuilt starter in perfect working order, brand new OEM solenoid.
Also If i short the thin wire on the solenoid to the power feed direct from the battery the solenoid does engage and the starter turns fine. giving the conclusion that the starter and solenoid both work fine.

 

[posplayr]

OK. A simple one. If im testing for resistance with a multi meter and i put one probe onto the wire that leads towards the starter button from the solenoid ((with the solenoid disconnected)(yellow/green)) and the other on the negative wire that connects to the battery terminal or any part of the frame for that matter (without the battery installed) and i press the starter button with the switch set to on and the clutch pulled in should i get a reading that indicated a complete circuit or should only the positive battery wire complete the circuit?

And just to add, rebuilt starter in perfect working order, brand new OEM solenoid.
Also If i short the thin wire on the solenoid to the power feed direct from the battery the solenoid does engage and the starter turns fine. giving the conclusion that the starter and solenoid both work fine.

I thought we covered this. The green/yellow wire applies 12V to the solenoid coil which energizes it to cause the big terminals to short. It is not low side control (i.e one where ground is used to energies the coil)

The answer to your question is that you should get a complete circuit from the Yellow Green (when disconnected from solenoid) to the battery (+). It would indicate a direct short if you get a connection to Battery (-). Your harness would get very hot or you would blow a fuse if it was shorted to Battery (-).

It has been explained by Redman a couple of times

IIRC (this is an 1100E anyway)..........................

+12V battery(+) ->fuse box(red)
fusebox->Ignition switch(orange)
Ignition switch->fuse box->(orange)
fuse box->On switch(Orange/White)
Onswitch->Start button (inside the right hand control)
Start Button->solenoid(this is now green/yellow)

You push the start button and you are connected directly from 12V battery(+) to Green/yellow. This is called high side control. You keep describing low side control.

It still sounds like the solenoid is bad; there should be no shorts to ground when the solenoid is energised.

 

[Counterpoint]

Im sorry that this has gone in a frustrating circle over and over again. From where i stand the problem is that i haven't learnt anything new about how the systems works (maybe aside from wire colours). Id already done all tests suggested, id already tested the starter and solenoid, checked all grounding/earthing points and looked for any damaged wires. I know that my problem is the short to the -signal im detecting in the starter circuit (high side control).

Where im stuck is that the problem exsists only after the controlls in the circuit (towards the solenoid) and only when the starter button is depressed. Sounds to me like that little button is the problem but i've bypassed it and get the same result. IT DOESNT MAKE SENSE I KNOW! its doing my head in! This is why i've asked for help. Was hoping there was a trick or common issue that i was neglecting as all tests so far come up with no conclusions.

Looks like i'll be rewiring the circuit from scratch...

 

[posplayr]

Im sorry that this has gone in a frustrating circle over and over again. From where i stand the problem is that i haven't learnt anything new about how the systems works (maybe aside from wire colours). Id already done all tests suggested, id already tested the starter and solenoid, checked all grounding/earthing points and looked for any damaged wires. I know that my problem is the short to the -signal im detecting in the starter circuit (high side control).

Where im stuck is that the problem exsists only after the controlls in the circuit (towards the solenoid) and only when the starter button is depressed. Sounds to me like that little button is the problem but i've bypassed it and get the same result. IT DOESNT MAKE SENSE I KNOW! its doing my head in! This is why i've asked for help. Was hoping there was a trick or common issue that i was neglecting as all tests so far come up with no conclusions.

Looks like i'll be rewiring the circuit from scratch...

Well did you do your own test that you asked for in such detail previoulsy?

You could save your self alot of aggravation by just finding the problem now rather that trying to rewire something that has nothing to do with the issue

There are only three wires going to the solenoid right?

• One is heavy RED cable to battery (+)
• One is heavy RED cable to starter
• one is 18ga Green/yellow from starter button which you have also by passed.
• There is also a frame retrun for the activation coil (green/yellow return)

If you can short across the the heavy cables connections (which you claimed before) then ==> the starter is connected properly.

If you apply 12V to the green/yellow connection and the heavy wire (to BATT(+) get hot but the starter does not crank (which is what you reported)Then ==> the SOLENOID is BAD

This has been mentioned about three times as a conclusive test of a bad solenoid.

Is that what happens? If so then the solenoid is bad; it is NOT a short as you seem to be clinging to

 

[Counterpoint]

As previously stated.

Also If i short the thin wire on the solenoid to the power feed direct from the battery the solenoid does engage and the starter turns fine. giving the conclusion that the starter and solenoid both work fine.

 

[posplayr]

As previously stated.

but if you power this wire from the start button the battery cable gets hot and the starter doesn't turn? That is what you said before

 

[K-Log]

If im testing for resistance with a multi meter and i put one probe onto the wire that leads towards the starter button from the solenoid ((with the solenoid disconnected)(yellow/green)) and the other on the negative wire that connects to the battery terminal or any part of the frame for that matter (without the battery installed) and i press the starter button with the switch set to on and the clutch pulled in should i get a reading that indicated a complete circuit or should only the positive battery wire complete the circuit?

And just to add, rebuilt starter in perfect working order, brand new OEM solenoid.
Also If i short the thin wire on the solenoid to the power feed direct from the battery the solenoid does engage and the starter turns fine. giving the conclusion that the starter and solenoid both work fine.

If you are checking the incoming signal wire at the solenoid (yellow/green) with an ohmmeter back to a ground and all the safety switches, keyswitch, and start button are pressed (made) the meter will show low resistance from all the parallel paths back through the individual loads that are grounded. So yes it will look like a complete path.
This type of test might be misleading at best. The difference being maybe 1 ohm and we don't know what the value is before the test.
An easier test is to disconnect the yellow/ green wire from the solenoid place the red meter lead on that wire. Place the black meter lead on ground (frame) with the clutch pulled in, switch on, battery disconnected (both leads) press the starter button. If you see a path back to ground 1 ohm or less then you have a direct short in the control portion of the circuit. The tricky part will be that this measure can also be as high as 1 million ohms and still indicate a short.
If what you have stated before is true and the starter & solenoid work when jumping the terminal where the yellow/green wire is connected on the solenoid to +12V then I would suspect a short in the control circuit coming from the start pushbutton.
Another check you can do is reconnect the battery both + & - set your volmeter to measure DC voltage and check across the battery and write down the measurement. Now place the red voltmeter lead on the disconnected yellow/green wire from the solenoid and the meters black lead to ground. (frame) Press the starter button and see what the voltage is at the end of the yellow/green wire.
The voltmeter measurement should be the same as what your battery measures across the + & - terminals. If the wire (yellow/green) gets hot or a fuse blows then the wiring on the control side is shorted somewhere between where the wire connects to the solenoid and the start pushbutton. If the wire (yellow/green) does not get hot and a fuse does not blow and you have 12+ volts at the end of the wire. Then the control side of the starter solenoid wiring is fine.
I'm only going off of what has been previously posted I do not have the schematic in front of me.
Hope this helps!
Good Luck!

 

[posplayr]

If you are checking the incoming signal wire at the solenoid (yellow/green) with an ohmmeter back to a ground and all the safety switches, keyswitch, and start button are pressed (made) the meter will show low resistance from all the parallel paths back through the individual loads that are grounded. So yes it will look like a complete path.
This type of test might be misleading at best. The difference being maybe 1 ohm and we don't know what the value is before the test.
An easier test is to disconnect the yellow/ green wire from the solenoid place the red meter lead on that wire. Place the black meter lead on ground (frame) with the clutch pulled in, switch on, battery disconnected (both leads) press the starter button. If you see a path back to ground 1 ohm or less then you have a direct short in the control portion of the circuit. The tricky part will be that this measure can also be as high as 1 million ohms and still indicate a short.
If what you have stated before is true and the starter & solenoid work when jumping the terminal where the yellow/green wire is connected on the solenoid to +12V then I would suspect a short in the control circuit coming from the start pushbutton.
Another check you can do is reconnect the battery both + & - set your volmeter to measure DC voltage and check across the battery and write down the measurement. Now place the red voltmeter lead on the disconnected yellow/green wire from the solenoid and the meters black lead to ground. (frame) Press the starter button and see what the voltage is at the end of the yellow/green wire.
The voltmeter measurement should be the same as what your battery measures across the + & - terminals. If the wire (yellow/green) gets hot or a fuse blows then the wiring on the control side is shorted somewhere between where the wire connects to the solenoid and the start pushbutton. If the wire (yellow/green) does not get hot and a fuse does not blow and you have 12+ volts at the end of the wire. Then the control side of the starter solenoid wiring is fine.
I'm only going off of what has been previously posted I do not have the schematic in front of me.
Hope this helps!
Good Luck!

except he claimed his RED battery leads are what is getting hot, not the green/yellow and the starter is not running.

 

[K-Log]

posplayr, I agree.
Then Counterpoint also said the starter and solenoid works when jumping the solenoid terminal to +12 so it's a contradiction. I'm just trying to help him narrow it down.

 

[posplayr]

posplayr, I agree.
Then Counterpoint also said the starter and solenoid works when jumping the solenoid terminal to +12 so it's a contradiction. I'm just trying to help him narrow it down.

I understand, it is what I call a Least Squares Approach, (best fit of the information) . OK good another motivated GSR'er to take over

 

[Redman]

OK. A simple one. If im testing for resistance with a multi meter and i put one probe onto the wire that leads towards the starter button from the solenoid ((with the solenoid disconnected)(yellow/green)) and the other on the negative wire that connects to the battery terminal or any part of the frame for that matter (without the battery installed) and i press the starter button with the switch set to on and the clutch pulled in should i get a reading that indicated a complete circuit or should only the positive battery wire complete the circuit?...
...
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Ah Haa !
Here is the sourse of the confusion, if you have the meter set to measure resistence and push the button and put voltage to the meter, .... if that is what you are doing when you say this or that is "earthing". Ah, haa, that is what the confusion is.

No ! No ! That is not how you measure resitance.
No ! No ! That is not how you determine if the circuit is complete between here and there !That is not how you measure resitance.
So that is why all your previous statements of "having an earth" or "sending an earth signal" does not make any sence.

What you described about having one lead on a wire (wire connected to solenoid or wire disconnected) and another lead on the ground and then pushing the starter button, that, that is what you would do to measure voltage.
Have the meter set to a voltage, DC voltage (not AC).
If when you push the button and you see the voltage go from nothing to about 12 volts then you have a good idea that the everthing in the circuit up to that point is functioning.

Practice measuring voltage in a few places, like acraost the battery, or at fuses.

So, have meter on DC voltage setting, Put meter lead on solenoid (yel/blk) and other lead on ground, then push button. IF see voltage go from zero to about 12, then know all that circuit is good up to that point, and then no need to look into any of that (thin wire) any more. Then look into the starter motor (thick wire) circuit.

Tell us more what you find.

(I too suspect your solenoid is defective. THe half of it that is in the starter motor circuit.)

.

 

[posplayr]

Ah Haa !
Here is the sourse of the confusion, if you have the meter set to measure resistence and push the button and put voltage to the meter, .... if that is what you are doing when you say this or that is "earthing". Ah, haa, that is what the confusion is.

No ! No ! That is not how you measure resitance.
No ! No ! That is not how you determine if the circuit is complete between here and there !That is not how you measure resitance.
So that is why all your previous statements of "having an earth" or "sending an earth signal" does not make any sence.

What you described about having one lead on a wire (wire connected to solenoid or wire disconnected) and another lead on the ground and then pushing the starter button, that, that is what you would do to measure voltage.
Have the meter set to a voltage, DC voltage (not AC).
If when you push the button and you see the voltage go from nothing to about 12 volts then you have a good idea that the everthing in the circuit up to that point is functioning.

Practice measuring voltage in a few places, like acraost the battery, or at fuses.

So, have meter on DC voltage setting, Put meter lead on solenoid (yel/blk) and other lead on ground, then push button. IF see voltage go from zero to about 12, then know all that circuit is good up to that point, and then no need to look into any of that (thin wire) any more. Then look into the starter motor (thick wire) circuit.

Tell us more what you find.

(I too suspect your solenoid is defective. THe half of it that is in the starter motor circuit.)

.

see what K-log said; nothing wrong with the solenoid or starter; now sounds like a bad starter button

posplayr, I agree.
Then Counterpoint also said the starter and solenoid works when jumping the solenoid terminal to +12 so it's a contradiction. I'm just trying to help him narrow it down.

 

[posplayr]

I guess the urgent need has subsided?

Problem solved?

Let us know so we can avoid the same problem in the future?

 

[Redman]

..
..
..
..Also If i short the thin wire on the solenoid to the power feed direct from the battery the solenoid does engage and the starter turns fine. giving the conclusion that the starter and solenoid both work fine.

I would agree with your conclusion.

And then there is a problem in the the circuit of the
Igntion fuse (orang wire) to the kill switch to the starter button to the clutch switch to the solenoid (yel/grn wire).

Put meter in VOLTAGE setting. (not resistance).
Put meter- lead on the ground or battery negitive.
As a quick test of the meter, put the meter+ on the thick red cable just to verify meter operation and meter- connection.
Now to proceed with the troubleshooting....
Put meter+ on the solenoid thin wire.
Ignition On, kill switch on, clutch pulled in, hit the starter button.
Should see the 12volts if everthing in the circuit is good (but by your previous statement can quess that you will not).
Will assume that you do not see the 12volts at the solenoid thin wire.
Can continue testing by working your way back along the circuit untill you see the 12volts.
Or can continue testing by starting at the source, in this case the Ignition fuse, and going along the circuit untill you see were you loose the 12volts.
Lets do that.

With ignition switch on, put meter+ on the ignition fuse, should see the 12volts on both sides of the fuse. If that is good, then go to next item which is the kill switch, but that is kinda hard to get at because it is inside the right control unit. BUt you can find the connector that comes from the kill swich and the starter button (green/yellow) wire on way over to the clutch swtich, this connector is probably in headlight shell, follow the cable from the right controls to find it. Put meter+ on the green/yellow wire from the control unit (can jam meter lead into the connector). Press the starter button, should see 12volts. If you do see the 12volts there, then can say the kill swtich and the starter button are both good. If not, ther is a problem with the kill switch or the starter button (will have to take apart the control unit to check further).

Next thing in line is the clutch switch. Follow the cable from the clutch switch and find its connector (it may be two individaul connectors) for the two green/yellow wires. Both wires from the clutch swtich are green/yellow. The green/yellow from the starter button should have 12v when push the starter button. And the other green/yellow (to the solenoid) should have the 12v when have both the starterbutton pushed and theclutch pulled in at same time, if not then your problem is the clutch switch.

Next thing in line is the solenoid . . . . .



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