Starter clutch issues...?

[80GS1000]

From time to time when starting the GS1000 when cold you hear a loud CLUNK from what I think is the starter clutch.

You hit the starter button, it'll crank for a few seconds, then CLANK! If you hit the starter button again after the loud CLUNK the bike cranks normally.

Is this issue causing damage to the motor?

As far as I know the original starter clutch is in there and has done 30K+ miles. What parts need to be replaced to get rid of the CLUNK upon startup?

 

[hampshirehog]

You've got 'clunk' and 'clank' in your description. Just to confuse things my description of the noise made by a failing starter clutch is 'clack'!

I presume that you're spinning the motor over on the starter then it makes the noise as the starter disengages. If this is right you need to strip that starter clutch out and replace parts 5,6 and 7 - often it's just the springs that have worn but the parts usually come as a set and you might as well replace them all while you're in there.

If you continue to run like this you can damage other parts of the starter clutch, especially part no 4 - the noise is the rollers hitting in and the surface can end up looking like it's been peened. Plus bits of the clutch can break off and roll around the engine.

 

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Yup. CLACK it is.:lol:
In the case of a starter clutch that's possibly this old, I'd buy the whole unit, which includes the primary gear. Mine cost approx' $150. I replaced my original starter clutch assembly ('791000E) recently and I just didn't want to try to be cheap and attempt replacing only the springs and push-pins and rollers. If the inside surface of the primary gear is still nice and smooth then you MAY get away with replacing only the springs/pins/rollers but look at it good. My experience is if the bike has been clacking for some time then the gear gets damaged too much. Then the new rollers have a compromised surface to contact and it just won't work well.
You'll need a rotor puller to get the rotor off. Be sure the tool is the correct one. Best to use a brass mallet when hitting the puller too.
I used an impact gun to loosen the rotor nut. Not difficult. If you don't have a rotor holder then you need to block the rear wheel or do something to lock it up so you can re-torque the nut correctly. Mine needed 72ft/lb. I put a large bolt throught the mag/swingarm to lock things up. Luckily I put several layers of protective tape on the bolt because that 5/8" bolt bent by the time I reached correct torque and would've gouged into the soft mag pretty deep. A rotor holder is best though. My chain was SUPER tight after I reached correct torque. I couldn't even pull the bent bolt out until I loosened up the chain adjusters and pushed the wheel forward. Can't be that good for the chain huh?
Also, on re-assembly, clean the rotor shaft really good and use RED thread lock to keep the nut from backing off.
Another thing that can happen if you're not aware, when you slip off the idler gear be sure you account for any washers/spacers that may fall. On my model, I didn't notice that one of the two spacers had slipped off at first but I then saw it slowly dropping down (stuck in the cold/thick oil). I know a few owners who made this mistake and after re-assembly, they immediately heard a "whirring" sound upon start up. What happens is a spacer can drop right down and get lodged between the two gears and you can imagine the sound it makes.
One other tip that may help, putting the cover back on may be a little difficult for some because of the magnetism/lining up the parts, so, find two extra bolts that you can cut off the heads. Now thread each one at opposite sides and they'll act as guides so you can slide the cover on much more easily and less likely to damage the new cover gasket too.

 

[80GS1000]

Thanks for the help guys.

Looks like I need to buy some tools. What rotor puller and flywheel holder would you recommend?

 

[80GS1000]

Bumping an old thread...


Which tool do you need to pull the flywheel/rotor on a 80 GS1000E?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Suzu...024QQitemZ370133218126QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Magn...17169QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWD1V#ebayphotohosting

This type:

or this type:

 

[srsupertrap]

I found this thread that Posplayr wrote to be quite informative. Anyone who experiences starter clutch problems ( Clack, Whack or Kickback ) on their modified GS's will find the following thread useful.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=123877&highlight=starter+clutch

I choose Option #2.

 

[posplayr]

OK I will fess up

OK I will fess up

On my 83GS1100ED, ORIGINALLY there was nothing wrong with the starter clutch but I needed to pull it off in order to "check it" when I was going through the motor the first time. I had only ridden it a short 150 miles but the clutch never made a noise or acted up prior to this.

Well after the trouble involved with removing the starter clutch (lots of heat and force). I bought a brand new one from Flatout. The first one worked fine but it did click (hard mechanical click) occasionally. This was not a kickback from high compression. It happened under full cranking speed.

During my "refurb/restor" the clutch had been left out and in the heat of battle (to get ready for the Yosimite trip) I forgot to add on the clutch bearing. So this starter clutch failed within about 2K miles.

I replaced that 2nd starter clutch with yet another band new one. Even right now this 3rd (2nd new clutch OEM) will occasionally have a loud clicking noise. Not real regular, but it has clicked 2-3 time in 5 seconds. This is not a kick back. That sounds different. Again this is on a second brand new Suzuki OEM starter clutch, barrels, springs the whole $95 part.

I'm just going to let it settle in

For high compression engines that kick back, the starter mod seems to improve any kickback which is also a loud cracking sound. Rapid Ray has done this for years.


Pos

 

[TheCafeKid]

Gents, this may be a foregone conclusion, as this thread seems somewhat older? But, changing the throwouts, rollers and springs is not going to help you MOST times, as the fault lies in the metal housing containing these parts. Again, most of the time. After years and years of brutal force being applied to the rollers, then to the springs and throwouts, what happens is the metal surround that, in a sense, actually pushes BACK against this force, becomes weak, dented, and in extreme cases, the throwout, spring, and god help you no, even the roller will come OUT of the clutch assembly, THROUGH the clutch assembly. Obviously, this renders the entire thing useless, but worse, all those parts end up in your oiling system (ask how i know) The roller, its heavy, prolly not going anywhere on a low pressure system that MOST of the GSs use. But that spring.....ohhh yeah. And, as you're probably aware, its not very big, and eventually could find itself in multiple peices, in many locations. Not good. At any rate, the CLACK that is commonly associated with this problem is, from my experience, generally indicative of the starter clutch housing going bad, not the springs, rollers, or anything else. The "denting" you might see (ive even replaced one where someone actually tried to WELD the dents in order to avoid changing it out) means its ALL toast. New inards arent going to help, because the dents will allow the rollers to back off the crank, causing the miss that is made audible (CLACK) when the primary gear teeth SLIP, and then catch again. Thats my theory anyway. Ive never SEEN it actually happen because, well, you cant without making a BIG mess. :-\\\

 

[KEITH KRAUSE]

You need a puller like your top photo.
The "socket" part has female threads and threads onto the rotor. The other part threads into the socket part.
I'm not positive but my factory manual that covers the '79 and '80 GS1000E doesn't show the '80 needing a different puller than the one shown for the '79. So I believe they use the same puller.
I'll go out in the garage and look for my receipt to get you the part number. I bought mine through the Suzuki dealer though it's not the genuine Suzuki part but it's just as good on quality and fit.

 

[posplayr]

CLUTCH

4-2
CLUTCH SET, STA
12600-49865 (replaces 12600-49860) 1$95.10


Josh,
I was describing changing the entire "CLUTCH SET" which is item #4. This includes the large gear as well as the housing that holds the barrels and springs.

As luck would have it, when I installed my new clutch without the bearings (equivalent of Item # 9) the surfaces of the barrels and the outer machined hub on the big gear were ground down until the spauge clutch would no longer engage. By first appearance there did not seem to be anything wrong but measuring the dimensions there is about 0.050" of wear allowable (clutch barrels OD and hub OD) before the clutch will not engage. I know exactly what that is because I measured my clutch after it quite engaging. QED.

pos

 

[TheCafeKid]

You need a puller like your top photo.
The "socket" part has female threads and threads onto the rotor. The other part threads into the socket part.
I'm not positive but my factory manual that covers the '79 and '80 GS1000E doesn't show the '80 needing a different puller than the one shown for the '79. So I believe they use the same puller.
I'll go out in the garage and look for my receipt to get you the part number. I bought mine through the Suzuki dealer though it's not the genuine Suzuki part but it's just as good on quality and fit.

Not sure but I THINK only the 1100s (8 and 16v) use the rotor thats threaded on the outside, big diam vs them being threaded on the inside where it rests on the crank.

 

[KEITH KRAUSE]

OK. Genuine Suzuki p/n is 09930-34910. The p/n on my receipt is 15-0641. I hoped the receipt would show what catalog/supplier my tool came from but it doesn't.
The socket part is right at 3" long. The threaded bolt is 4" long. I'm sorry I don't remember the thread pitch/measurements.
I'm fairly sure the '80 uses the same puller but it would be easy to verify at the dealer. There aren't that many choices so just basic photos in the dealers catalog should make it obvious what you need.

 

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Looked at mine again, just to add info.
I measured with my thread gauge and the threads are 1.5mm, both socket and threaded bolt.
My socket is just a little over 2" deep. The threaded part inside the socket is about 1" long, maybe a little more.
I seem to remember at the dealer the catalog stating "30mm X 1.5mm" but I'm not positive about the 30mm. The 30mm can only be referring to the length of the threads inside the socket and mine appears pretty close to that.
Hope this helped.

 

[srsupertrap]

From time to time when starting the GS1000 when cold you hear a loud CLUNK from what I think is the starter clutch.

You hit the starter button, it'll crank for a few seconds, then CLANK! If you hit the starter button again after the loud CLUNK the bike cranks normally.

Is this issue causing damage to the motor?

As far as I know the original starter clutch is in there and has done 30K+ miles. What parts need to be replaced to get rid of the CLUNK upon startup?

This may raise some eye brows but replacing all the mechanical parts which Mr. KK, Mr. CK & Mr.Posplayr have mentioned addresses the mechanical wear/damage to the starter clutch. . . and yet the CLANK you have described will persist on those real cold winter days like today. I replaced items 5,6, & 7 a long time ago and still experienced the CLANK or WHACK as I have decribed it after replacing those items. Why? Because the design of the GS starter & electrical systems can only be described as nominal at best. The system was designed with little if any additional capacity/safety margin. So when you install a 1085 big bore kit, add H/D Valve springs or put any additional load on the starter all may be well when the temperature is above 60 degrees. It's a different story when the temperature is below freezing. This environment may preclude many of our California or Arizonia GS'ers.

Revisiting your stated symptom: It's 20 degrees fahrenheit out today in your garage, you turn on the key and start cranking your GS1000. The motor is spinning much slower than normal and by the third revolution you hear the dreaded CLANK. What happened was while the starter was cranking slower and slower the coils were still firing all along at 17 BTDC. The CLANK you heard occurred because the ignition fired before the piston physically reached TDC. We just had an explosion in the combustion chamber as the piston was still travelling up which resulted in the engine kick back and whacking the crap out of the starter clutch mechanism.

When my GS1085 did this I would actually see spent exhaust fumes emenating from the K&N Air Filters. And just like yours Mr 80GS1000 my bike would normally start right up after this episode. Therefore I reiterate my initial statement, if you want to minimize this starter clutch shredding phenomenon you will need to rewire the Kill Switch so you seperate the starter operation from ignition firing.

Option #2 is is a simple modification which only requires you to be a good solderer. This fix lets you crank the motor and then fire the ignition.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum...starter+clutch

 

[posplayr]

OK I'm going to

OK I'm going to

see if my ED will CLACK when the ignition is off but cranking over. I think it still does but will do the test and report back.

Pos

UPDATE: I pulled all four plug wires and the starter clutch still made a loud clicking sound. once per second at the most. I did a video but the click doesn't come through on the video.

The starter switch mod will not fix this. This starter clutch was a complete replacement with less than 200 miles on it.

 

[KEITH KRAUSE]

The clacking sound is caused by the rollers slipping against the primary gear. That's why I always suggest installing a new primary gear along with the clutch. Actually, they come as a set in most cases. Sometimes you can get away with a cheap fix by installing new pins/springs/rollers but the primary gear has to have minimal grooving/galling to still allow things to work. I personally like to fix something like this once and be done with it. My time is too important.
Living my whole life in California, I can't speak for really cold weather and the effects on the clutch but I doubt there's any significant problem with the rollers gripping a primary gear with a good surface to contact the rollers. I also have a 1085 kit and have had no problems with slippage due to higher compression.

 

[posplayr]

The clacking sound is caused by the rollers slipping against the primary gear.

Yes I agree

That's why I always suggest installing a new primary gear along with the clutch.

That is what I did (twice) with the same result. The new gear still clacks!!

Living my whole life in California,

I have only been here since 1969.

 

[80GS1000]

Could I possibly borrow someone's GS1000 rotor puller? I bought one from Z1 and it's the wrong type. DOH! I'd pay for round-trip shipping and a small rental fee if you like.

 

[Guest]

Will the wrong puller work on mine?

 

[tkent02]

Could I possibly borrow someone's GS1000 rotor puller? I bought one from Z1 and it's the wrong type. DOH! I'd pay for round-trip shipping and a small rental fee if you like.

Use the swingarm pivot, it's the same thread and will remove the rotor easily.