The open source Rectifier/Regulator

[rustybronco]

when you get your parts list and schematic finished may i ask that you post it up some we may work on a case design and the art work? maybe then Frank can fit it into "in the garage" as a section "home brewing" or "rosin core 101" with a led voltmeter ect.

[duaneage]

If you can build a better one and cheaper, do it.


I already did. I bought a Honda RR for a few dollars and installed it. Works great. Fits in the factory location and bolts right in.

If you want to send money to someone for a schematic while plans are freely available on the internet that's your business. But others should be made aware that there are cheaper alternatives and better ideas that make more sense than a Suzuki OEM RR.

I don't think he was the first person to make plans available here but he was the first to charge for them. Now if he offered assembled and tested units that solved your charging problems that would really be something.

[ghwrenchit]

It puzzles and gives me pause to see how Cletus's design is perceived to be the holy grail of design perfection and "bulletproof" because he has specified extra tolerances on some components. His design seems to be the only one on the planet for a shunt regulator that doesn't use heat sink(s). Instead of using an inexpensive heat sink to absorb heat, he seems to think that retaining heat in more expensive components is a satisfactory solution. Not a very elegant or "better quality" solution in my opinion. I'm not moonstruck about his design, which is basically the same as the free open source vreg.pdf file without the heatsink(s) which are considered mandatory by commercial designers who have to pay for their mistakes. All I've seen so far is a box that is unwieldy and oversized for motorcycle use (with unnecessary components) whose long term practicality and viability remain to be seen. I am skeptical, and frankly the rhetoric and concept does not impress. Sorry if I offend the true believers.

Boondicks,

Where the he|| is your design? Maybe I missed it from not searching the post's from years ago. give the guy a break. If you can continue this thread without names mentioned, and bashing previous thread's, I'll be impressed with your intelligence.... and posts.

ghwrenchit

[Boondocks]

Boondicks,

Where the he|| is your design? Maybe I missed it from not searching the post's from years ago. give the guy a break. If you can continue this thread without names mentioned, and bashing previous thread's, I'll be impressed with your intelligence.... and posts.

ghwrenchit

Why so defensive? Planecrazy mentioned Cletus's design in his post, and I replied to his post and referenced the same design by Cletus. What's the big deal with mentioning his name to identify and comment on a design? Is having skeptical criticism the same as "bashing"? This thread had nothing to do with Cletus (Berkeley) or his design until his name was first brought up by Nerobro and Planecrazy. I didn't see you going nuts over their mention of his name to identify their observations. Maybe because you agree with them but not with me?

I don't care what you think of my intelligence and posts, not a bit. In fact, when I am flamed by an overreactive mentality, it obviously reflects more on the intelligence and mentality of that party, which is no concern of mine.

On the other hand, maybe you are preoccupied with other thoughts and desires, as when you misspelled my name as "Boondicks". I don't wish to delve into your personal life, and hope you feel better soon.:-D

[bakalorz]

I will defer to Greg (Nerobro) on the exact cost estimates (he ordered for us both), but the parts for Cletus' design were NOT expensive compared to buying a used commercial unit on Ebay or building a slightly different design (as you are doing here) yourself. The thing you left out in your comparison was that Cletus has also added a really nice feature the commercial units don't have ... the ability to fine tune the voltage for the type of battery you have. I have a sealed glass mat battery, and my understanding is that they perform better and last longer if you charge them at a higher voltage than a standard lead acid "wet" cell.

Mine will be adjustable too, the one on the web was, I would guess most homebuilt ones ever designed would have been too. I can't see an OEM leaving that as something for the user to play with though.

Considering the "infamous" failure rate for the OEM R/R's and the fact that they often take more expensive components with them when they go, it seems like a "no-brainer" to me to spend a few extra bucks and design "the best" and most bulletproof replacement you can ... in the end it's cheap insurance.

So while I applaud your efforts at providing an "open-source" solution, my opinion is that you should still be shooting for a much superior replacement for stock, rather than simply looking for the lowest cost equivalent. My strategy for any sort of replacement, whether it be motorcycle, automotive, home appliances, etc. is to always replace with at least "one level better" than what I had, and this strategy has ultimately saved me a lot of money over time because the "better quality" replacements almost always last much longer than a cheaper alternative would have. Not always true, but generally an economical winner...

Regards,

I am hoping for this to be at least one level better too.

FWIW the specs aren't too far apart, I will probably have 10 amps/phase less SCRs in mine, but 10 amps/phase more diodes. If my (and/or) user testing seems to show that thats not adequate, then I would happily uprate them. Based on what I know so far, they are MORE than adequate.

If they are enough to handle the power without failing, then there is no advantage to making them even better than that.
Sometimes you get better results buying more expensive parts, sometimes you just end up spending money for no actual advantage in performance.

I know someone who puts premium gas in a Ford Escort designed to run on regular. Is he getting anything out of it ?
He's convinced he is ... I disagree and put regular in my car.

[bakalorz]

when you get your parts list and schematic finished may i ask that you post it up some we may work on a case design and the art work? maybe then Frank can fit it into "in the garage" as a section "home brewing" or "rosin core 101" with a led voltmeter ect.

The parts list and schematic are done, but there are two possibilities, depending on which way I go on the control circuit. It will take some testing after they are built to know.

I will post them as soon as I finalize it.

[bakalorz]

Man, If there is anything worse than petty bitchin about something, it is EE's bitchin about stuff in terms i don't understand. Cut it out already. Why don't you guys get together on a design that incorporates the best of both designs and not "mine is better and cheaper than yours".

I am not an EE, I'm a Rocket Scientist*, get it straight.

I had hoped to work together on the design Cletus was doing, but he kept it proprietary.

I was trying to provide info on how the designs were different, and why. I was NOT trying to say either was better.

BTW some of the "bitchin about stuff in terms i don't understand" could be viewed as trying to "incorporates the best of both designs" by discussing what is important and what is not.

Cletus was on the right track, just trying something that he thought was needed. Maybe his is overkill, but it works for his application and he was the first to design and build and make one available to everyone.

Actually, to pick a nit that bugged me: he didn't really make it available to everyone. Just those that were willing to pay.

Sure there was other schematics and designs before his, but where were all of you when he was BUILDING one. Sittin at your desk criticizing him.

Actually, when the other thread first started, I was eagerly waiting to build and/or experiment with his design.

When it came out that he was going to charge for the design, I was VERY disappointed; but I didn't bitch, I started to design my own.

Someone eventually spoke up that he thought it was inappropriate that Cletus was charging, and I agreed and also mentioned that I was doing freebie, and here we are

Get over it. If you can build a better one and cheaper, do it. Do it for me and all of the other non techno geeks out there, who can't or have no interest in building one ourselves.

I'm trying.

We still all need one. Our GS's RR's are CRAP. That IS the REAL problem. Sorry, My .02

.02 is not going to cover it, please send big $$, Paypal info to follow.

Thank you and have a nice day.

---------

* Well; ok, not really a Rocket Scientist: an Aerospace Engineer ...
but Rocket Scientist sounds so much better. \\/

[bakalorz]

Maybe it might be a good idea to put a ziener diode under the cap to drain power if the line voltage hits.. oh.. 20v?

Hmmm... you mean like ... to regulate the voltage or something ...

The Zener to do what you suggest would effectively be what they used to use for regulators way back when.

An adequate zener for our alternators would be $$$

The cap I ordered for the berkley regs are 50v.

If you are allowed to say, can you give me a part #, or catalog #.

[Planecrazy]

It puzzles and gives me pause to see how Cletus's design is perceived to be the holy grail of design perfection and "bulletproof" because he has specified extra tolerances on some components. His design seems to be the only one on the planet for a shunt regulator that doesn't use heat sink(s). Instead of using an inexpensive heat sink to absorb heat, he seems to think that retaining heat in more expensive components is a satisfactory solution. Not a very elegant or "better quality" solution in my opinion. I'm not moonstruck about his design, which is basically the same as the free open source vreg.pdf file without the heatsink(s) which are considered mandatory by commercial designers who have to pay for their mistakes. All I've seen so far is a box that is unwieldy and oversized for motorcycle use (with unnecessary components) whose long term practicality and viability remain to be seen. I am skeptical, and frankly the rhetoric and concept does not impress. Sorry if I offend the true believers.

First of all, the fact that I find Cletus' effort to be long overdue doesn't make me a "true believer" as you put it, nor do I have anything against anyone else who wants to duplicate the work and post it for free. I, for one, found value in what he was/is doing, and am more than happy to reward that effort by paying a small fee to have the solution "spelled out for me," so to speak.

Regarding your skepticism on building a R/R without a heat sink, Cletus solved the problem by overspecing the components AND using a larger/thicker box to draw excess heat away. He also suggested mounting the unit to the frame in a way that uses the frame more effectively than the stock units do, so in reality he didn't ignore using a heat sink ... he just eliminated the need for one. Commercial units MUST employ heat sinks simply because they ARE packaged in a tiny space with limited available area for heat dissipation ... they're trying to fit as many applications as possible, whereas we have the flexibility to diverge because we're building it ourselves...

For what it's worth, Greg (Nerobro) and I spent the day with his roomate, Steve (Skreemer) building two R/R's based on Cletus' design. Greg spec'd out several less expensive components that were either identical in value or very close to what Cletus had suggested (and he ran the changes by Cletus to make sure he wasn't missing something in the translation), and we assembled them in a MUCH smaller box with thinner walls. We learned a LOT!

Despite being mounted in boxes that ultimately proved to be too thin, neither R/R overheated during testing, and we were able to confirm that the design will NOT require an extra heat sink, though we do plan to remount the components in a slightly thicker form factor which will more effectively draw off heat.

Bottom line ... the design appears to work as advertised, and I continue to believe that this is a much better alternative to buying a used Honda unit with an unknown history and questionable future. They may very well work just fine on our bikes, but I prefer the flexibility that the custom unit provides, both for charging my glass mat battery, as well as the ability to run the bike even if the battery is dead (which OEM and commercial units won't do, so far as I know).

Like I said before, if you want to buy used on Ebay and you're happy with the result, go for it. I like the idea of new components, and I especially like the satisfaction of having built it myself.

Regards,

[rustybronco]

and I especially like the satisfaction of having built it myself.

Regards,

ummmmm rosin!
and the bonus is you can repair it.

[Nerobro]

Hmmm... you mean like ... to regulate the voltage or something ...
If you are allowed to say, can you give me a part #, or catalog #.

Yup, but that's reality. What happens if your rectifier dies? And it dumps AC into your bike? Or how about when an SCR fails? Given the parts specs, I don't see any voltage regulation step dieing. ;-) As for the capacitor, hop on digikey, and search. I don't have the part number handy. I'm happy to share it later tonight. They were $1.74 each.

[ghwrenchit]

Why so defensive? Planecrazy mentioned Cletus's design in his post, and I replied to his post and referenced the same design by Cletus. What's the big deal with mentioning his name to identify and comment on a design? Is having skeptical criticism the same as "bashing"? This thread had nothing to do with Cletus (Berkeley) or his design until his name was first brought up by Nerobro and Planecrazy. I didn't see you going nuts over their mention of his name to identify their observations. Maybe because you agree with them but not with me?

I don't care what you think of my intelligence and posts, not a bit. In fact, when I am flamed by an overreactive mentality, it obviously reflects more on the intelligence and mentality of that party, which is no concern of mine.

On the other hand, maybe you are preoccupied with other thoughts and desires, as when you misspelled my name as "Boondicks". I don't wish to delve into your personal life, and hope you feel better soon.:-D

Boondocks,

your right, and I apologize for the insult.... this was directed at you and should not have been.#-o I'm just alittle bummed for Cletus because I know him from other forum's and his expertise is awsome to say the least. To some extent, everyone following that thread was encouraging the project, up until the cost aspect at the end. I posted in anger, trying to defend another member, and did'nt need to dor that. Letting that go now.... overreactive I guess...

As to personal life, you don't need to delve in cause I'll share... Married 12 yrs, great wife(finally let me ride again:-D ... Getting a 550L ready for her, she's geeked\\/ ), two kids, Jennah 7, Jared 6 (my third hand in the garage), along with fat fingers... o next to i on the keyboard.... sorry about the typo... and the flame.

ghwrenchit

[bakalorz]

Originally Posted by bakalorz
Hmmm... you mean like ... to regulate the voltage or something ...

Yup, but that's reality. What happens if your rectifier dies? And it dumps AC into your bike? Or how about when an SCR fails? Given the parts specs, I don't see any voltage regulation step dieing. ;-)

Sigh ... the joke is no good if I have to explain it ...
Some of the first bike regulators were just BMFZs (big .. Zeners)
I'm guessing the alternators were less powerful, and the loads were matched to them closely to let them get away with it.

Just for curiosity I checked Digikey last night. The biggest Zener they sold was 50 or 60 watts; the 14 volt one could handle about 4 amps if I remember right, a 20 volt one would be about 3 amps.
If you can parallel them (I don't know either way) you would need like 10 to protect your cap.
Digikey only stocked one wierd value, but might special order the right ones.
They were $56 each ... but there is probably a quantity discount if you get 10.

[Nerobro]

Yeah, I know how the old school bikes did it. You didn't have to explain it. In fact for the longest time I thought they still did it that way. We disected the stock one from my gs 550 es this weekend. Looks like SCR's or linear regs.. i'm not sure yet.

[Boondocks]

Boondocks,

your right, and I apologize for the insult.... this was directed at you and should not have been.#-o I'm just alittle bummed for Cletus because I know him from other forum's and his expertise is awsome to say the least. To some extent, everyone following that thread was encouraging the project, up until the cost aspect at the end. I posted in anger, trying to defend another member, and did'nt need to dor that. Letting that go now.... overreactive I guess...

As to personal life, you don't need to delve in cause I'll share... Married 12 yrs, great wife(finally let me ride again ... Getting a 550L ready for her, she's geeked\\/ ), two kids, Jennah 7, Jared 6 (my third hand in the garage), along with fat fingers... o next to i on the keyboard.... sorry about the typo... and the flame.

ghwrenchit

No hard feelings. All is forgiven.

Thanks for handling this situation like a man, which gains my respect. All of this argumentation is nothing more than the proverbial tempest in a teapot, and is not worth generating any bad feelings. It doesn't matter who's right and wrong, if we can learn something from the experience.

I obviously had no concerns about your personal life, but was just funning. Sounds like you have a great family. I know that kids that age are a lot of fun.

I doubt that we disagree on most things. Regards and respect.

Philip