Pete's right, POs lie ALL THE TIME. Really pay attention and do the maintenance yourself properly from step 1.
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Guest
Guest
I can guarantee that you are off with the cam timing!
Maybe both cam's.
Here is what I would do.
Step 1
Get piston # 1 and 4 ( all the way on the left and right) to TDC by lining up the mark on your engine casing to the line beside the T on the ignition advancer.
There is a T for 1 and 4 and a T for 2-3 . Look at the plate and you should see something like T| F| with 1-4 under it. That's what your going to set it on first.
Step 2
Remove the timing chain tensioner.
Step 3
Remove the camshaft caps.
BE careful here, Try and turn the cam's so that they are the most relaxed. As in: not pressing directly down anywhere.
If you can't get it at a good spot that's ok.
The thing you have to be careful with is removing the cam caps equally.
If one side comes up more than the others then the there is a good chance you can strip threads out of the head.
So just do a few turns at a time trying to keep everything equal as it comes up and the same thing when they go back down.
Step 4
Reinstall the exhaust camshaft first so that the # 1 is pointing straight forward, the # 2 is pointing straight up and the notch in the end is pointing backwards.
Make sure your pulling the chain tight in the front and check the timing marks on the crank to see if it moved while you were keeping tension on the chain and tightening the cam back down.
I would just stick a wrench on the crank and hold it or tape it to the engine to prevent it from moving.
Tighten it down and see if it lines up.
You might have to do that 2 or 3 times because the cam might rotate as you tighten the caps down.
In that case just advance or retard the cam a bit on the chain and tighten it down again until its right.
Step 5
Same thing for the intake cam, only this time its easier because all you have to do is count 23 pins between the #2 on the exhaust cam and the #3 on the intake cam. That is 23 pins including the first and last pin's.
The two notches should be pointing towards eatchother now.
Step 6
Reinstall the timing chain tensioner.
You have to rotate the knob and push it in as you rotate and hold it rotated as you put the bolts back in.
Once you let it go, it will stop the plunger from pushing back out and automatically start taking up the slack in the chain.
There might be some slack somewhere in the chain, Hopefully its all in the back where it should be.
Step 7
Rotate the engine slowly, If your 1 tooth off it either direction you will feel a stop, and even then you can push through that point if you try, So don't push it.
If you make it around 1/2 turn look at the notches in the cam's. The EX cam should be pointing straight up and the Intake straight down.
Try another 1/2 turn and check the timing mark when you come back around to it.
Line it up and make sure the notches are pointing away from eatchother and parallel with the head.
After that just lube the rockers and cam's and try rotating it around a few times to make sure everything is ok.
If the cam's are not perfectly aligned and your a tooth off that could be that there was some slack in the front and you have to start over again.
Maybe both cam's.
Here is what I would do.
Step 1
Get piston # 1 and 4 ( all the way on the left and right) to TDC by lining up the mark on your engine casing to the line beside the T on the ignition advancer.
There is a T for 1 and 4 and a T for 2-3 . Look at the plate and you should see something like T| F| with 1-4 under it. That's what your going to set it on first.
Step 2
Remove the timing chain tensioner.
Step 3
Remove the camshaft caps.
BE careful here, Try and turn the cam's so that they are the most relaxed. As in: not pressing directly down anywhere.
If you can't get it at a good spot that's ok.
The thing you have to be careful with is removing the cam caps equally.
If one side comes up more than the others then the there is a good chance you can strip threads out of the head.
So just do a few turns at a time trying to keep everything equal as it comes up and the same thing when they go back down.
Step 4
Reinstall the exhaust camshaft first so that the # 1 is pointing straight forward, the # 2 is pointing straight up and the notch in the end is pointing backwards.
Make sure your pulling the chain tight in the front and check the timing marks on the crank to see if it moved while you were keeping tension on the chain and tightening the cam back down.
I would just stick a wrench on the crank and hold it or tape it to the engine to prevent it from moving.
Tighten it down and see if it lines up.
You might have to do that 2 or 3 times because the cam might rotate as you tighten the caps down.
In that case just advance or retard the cam a bit on the chain and tighten it down again until its right.
Step 5
Same thing for the intake cam, only this time its easier because all you have to do is count 23 pins between the #2 on the exhaust cam and the #3 on the intake cam. That is 23 pins including the first and last pin's.
The two notches should be pointing towards eatchother now.
Step 6
Reinstall the timing chain tensioner.
You have to rotate the knob and push it in as you rotate and hold it rotated as you put the bolts back in.
Once you let it go, it will stop the plunger from pushing back out and automatically start taking up the slack in the chain.
There might be some slack somewhere in the chain, Hopefully its all in the back where it should be.
Step 7
Rotate the engine slowly, If your 1 tooth off it either direction you will feel a stop, and even then you can push through that point if you try, So don't push it.
If you make it around 1/2 turn look at the notches in the cam's. The EX cam should be pointing straight up and the Intake straight down.
Try another 1/2 turn and check the timing mark when you come back around to it.
Line it up and make sure the notches are pointing away from eatchother and parallel with the head.
After that just lube the rockers and cam's and try rotating it around a few times to make sure everything is ok.
If the cam's are not perfectly aligned and your a tooth off that could be that there was some slack in the front and you have to start over again.
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guzziboy
Guest
outstanding explanation thanks dude 
going to attack it this weekend!
going to attack it this weekend!
G
Guest
Guest
Something I just thought of.
On each cylinder when ever you have the lobe pointing straight up, check the clearance between the valve stem and the pin on the rocker.
Should be 0.03-0.08mm I think, the numbers are in the manual though.
If you get any numbers that are larger than that by quite a bit you might have bent valves.
That's just one way to tell.
But with the way it is, I think The intake valve is opening when the piston is about to move back up and then its rushing away fast enough so that the piston doesn't hit it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=k91yo3unKzY
Take a look at that and try to imagine the intake being 1/4 turn retarded.
Here's the parts list for your bike
Or
http://www.cmsnl.com/suzuki-gsx400-1981-fx_model13621/partslist/?model_q=gsx400
On each cylinder when ever you have the lobe pointing straight up, check the clearance between the valve stem and the pin on the rocker.
Should be 0.03-0.08mm I think, the numbers are in the manual though.
If you get any numbers that are larger than that by quite a bit you might have bent valves.
That's just one way to tell.
But with the way it is, I think The intake valve is opening when the piston is about to move back up and then its rushing away fast enough so that the piston doesn't hit it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=k91yo3unKzY
Take a look at that and try to imagine the intake being 1/4 turn retarded.
Here's the parts list for your bike
Or
http://www.cmsnl.com/suzuki-gsx400-1981-fx_model13621/partslist/?model_q=gsx400
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+1 on what Mekanix is saying, What you are looking to do is on #1 you want to have the compression stroke where the marks will all line up if everything is ok the way to confirm this is on the next full rotation of the crank, so #1 is back up to TDC (top dead center) is that the cams should be "on the rock" ie the exhaust is just fininshing its closing cycle and the inletis starting its opening.
If you go through this the timing marks will align and become clearer.
Just to be clear on what has been said, always rotate the engine slowly through the whole process, you will find TDC by taking out the #1 plug and looking or ursing something to feel it, like a screwdriver.Using this method you can manage the job without timing marks entirely, but they are always there. It is a good way to find the marks when on some engines they are hard to find.
If you go through this the timing marks will align and become clearer.
Just to be clear on what has been said, always rotate the engine slowly through the whole process, you will find TDC by taking out the #1 plug and looking or ursing something to feel it, like a screwdriver.Using this method you can manage the job without timing marks entirely, but they are always there. It is a good way to find the marks when on some engines they are hard to find.
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Guest
Guest
Awesome Mekanix! I just don't have the head to explain that stuff... I'd have to sit there reading the manual for half an hour then very carefully follow it step by step...
Great information but just one correction here to the bolded words. The number 1 cylinder is under the clutch handle side of the bike which, if you are sitting on the bike, is under your left hand.
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Guest
Guest
Your right, Edited.
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guzziboy
Guest
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guzziboy
Guest
So I pulled the thing apart this arvo and lined my cams up as per the manual it felt a bit weird when I had it back together thou ... It gets kind of tight when you turn it by hand.. But tighter and a harder sound than the normal compression sound ?? Gonna adjust all the valves tomorrow and see how it feels
Something weird going on here
Something weird going on here
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Guest
Guest
Pull the plugs out.
Look at which piston is comming up and which set of valves are moving.
The way the cams were before, you were getting a very small amount of compression. Now your getting all of it. Pull the plugs to be sure its not compression and check if its mechanical.
Look at which piston is comming up and which set of valves are moving.
The way the cams were before, you were getting a very small amount of compression. Now your getting all of it. Pull the plugs to be sure its not compression and check if its mechanical.
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guzziboy
Guest
I have them all out it feels way too solid to be compression..
I did briefly check the valve clearance and they all are really tight like hard up against the tappet
Got to get some new feeler gauges today and check them all properly !
I did briefly check the valve clearance and they all are really tight like hard up against the tappet
Got to get some new feeler gauges today and check them all properly !
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Guest
Guest
Could try to loosen all the valves off.and tighten down just until they touch lightly for now. But you have to turn them down quite a bit to make contact with the piston. So I think its still timing.
Could you take a pic of the #4 cylinder cam lobes when the T mark is lined up for 1-4. and make sure that piston is all the way up. Use a screw driver in the plug hole to see when its all the way up.
I'm trying to work out how everything is lined up and how the lobes are pointing.
If you line up the T mark for 2 and 3 and align the cam's for it being in the 1 and 4 position it will lock up like that.
Can you set it up for 1-4 tdc and take a few more pictures from different angles.
Could you take a pic of the #4 cylinder cam lobes when the T mark is lined up for 1-4. and make sure that piston is all the way up. Use a screw driver in the plug hole to see when its all the way up.
I'm trying to work out how everything is lined up and how the lobes are pointing.
If you line up the T mark for 2 and 3 and align the cam's for it being in the 1 and 4 position it will lock up like that.
Can you set it up for 1-4 tdc and take a few more pictures from different angles.
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guzziboy
Guest
Okay Mr Mekanix so I had a small win today
I checked and doubled checked the timing and adjusted all the valves.. Nothing seemed to far out of adjustment which is good I guess
So I put everything back together...
I managed to even get the thing to want to start until my battery went flat
Here's a pic of cylinder 4 you can see its at TDC and it was siting perfect at the timing mark
Here's a side shot showing the ends of the cams on cylinder 4
I checked and doubled checked the timing and adjusted all the valves.. Nothing seemed to far out of adjustment which is good I guess
So I put everything back together...
I managed to even get the thing to want to start until my battery went flat
Here's a pic of cylinder 4 you can see its at TDC and it was siting perfect at the timing mark
Here's a side shot showing the ends of the cams on cylinder 4
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Guest
Guest
Aaaah Mekanix to the rescue again, he's da man!
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Guest
Guest
In the pics it looks like your on tdc just before then intake stroke. I wanted to see it on the next stroke. Compression. That way you see where the notches are pointng at the end of the cam and if the #1 on the exhaust cam is pointing forward.
If the timing mark on the crank is lined up for 1-4 tdc then the cam's look to be 1-2 teeth off in the pic. On the compression stroke you can tell by the notches and by the #1 on the exhaust cam being pparalel with the front of the block.
The cams do look timed together properly but the notches should be paralel with the head if its timed with the crank. You can see the notch on the intake cam is pointing slightly up from forward.
In the pic it looks like the intake cam is 1 tooth late. And that means that the exhaust cam is late as well.
This causes the intake cam to come in later but causes the exhaust cam to stay out longer which could cause the valves to hit the piston.
If the timing mark on the crank is lined up for 1-4 tdc then the cam's look to be 1-2 teeth off in the pic. On the compression stroke you can tell by the notches and by the #1 on the exhaust cam being pparalel with the front of the block.
The cams do look timed together properly but the notches should be paralel with the head if its timed with the crank. You can see the notch on the intake cam is pointing slightly up from forward.
In the pic it looks like the intake cam is 1 tooth late. And that means that the exhaust cam is late as well.
This causes the intake cam to come in later but causes the exhaust cam to stay out longer which could cause the valves to hit the piston.
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guzziboy
Guest
yeah the notches dont quite line up do they.I must be one tooth out!
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Guest
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Yup. I've done that many times. 
It usually happenes when you tighten down the cam. You have to advance it so that when you tighten the cam down that it rotates the cam to the right place.
It usually happenes when you tighten down the cam. You have to advance it so that when you tighten the cam down that it rotates the cam to the right place.
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guzziboy
Guest
Yup. I've done that many times.
It usually happenes when you tighten down the cam. You have to advance it so that when you tighten the cam down that it rotates the cam to the right place.
You hit the nail on the head right there buddy...after about six tries I finally worked that out when I placed the tensioner in too see what happens when the chain goes tight and WALLAH she lined up!
so the good news is
WE HAVE A RUNNER LADIES AND GENTS!!!!
cant get it to idle without the choke yet but im sure after some tinkering it will be sweet..the motor actually sounds pretty good once its running!
ray:THANK YOU MR MEKANIX
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Guest
Guest
Glad to hear she runs.
