How Many Practice?

[1978GS750E]

How long are we going to beat this dead horse?
Let it go man...

I'm all in for some much-needed weeding! Seems there is no end to the knowledge and the continued sharing of such!

[Suzukian]

How long are we going to beat this dead horse?
Let it go man...

Let what go.

[dpep]

It isn't worth arguing the point. If you don't understand it, that's fine, I'm not here to be your teacher. Please, don't ever fly a helicopter though, you will gt in trouble fast. Gyroscopic Precession plus the P-Factor is what causes tail dragging aircraft to ground loop. This is also why you see the controls for the squash plate on a helicopter on the back and side of it. When Igor Sikorsky figured this out, he finally mounted a tail rotor, which does not prevent the helicopter for spinning around, it allows the helicopter to fly forward without corkscrewing, because of gyroscopic precession, and the advancing blade into the air flow getting more lift than the retreating blade.

I have in the range of 1600-1800 hours piloting tail draggers. Counting flight school, touch and goes, etc. I probably have 1000 landings in them--paved runways, steel plate runways, dirt strips, grass fields--with no ground loops. I can honestly say that on not a single one of those landings did gyroscopic precession enter my mind. Guess I was just lucky.

Gyroscopic forces are among the many considerations that have to be addressed in the design of an aircraft. But it is not something a pilot normally contemplates during landing and roll out. Wind direction and velocity, atmospheric pressure, and gravity are the issues foremost.

Crosswinds are the biggest hazard for ground loops--both takeoffs and landings. Gusting crosswinds are the worst.

Motorcycle riders are simply doing the same as pilots--using all of the controls at their disposal to keep their vehicle pointed in the right direction while not losing the the battle with gravity. If the rider presented with a road hazard or the pilot with a wind gust has to think about how to correct the situation he is toast.

The reaction needs to be as close to instinctive and to instantaneous as possible. And the way to assure that happens is to practice. Do the repetitive drill until the response is wired in. It may not guarantee you make it through a danger; but it sure does increase your odds of doing so by a whole lot.

[Suzukian]

I have in the range of 1600-1800 hours piloting tail draggers. Counting flight school, touch and goes, etc. I probably have 1000 landings in them--paved runways, steel plate runways, dirt strips, grass fields--with no ground loops. I can honestly say that on not a single one of those landings did gyroscopic precession enter my mind. Guess I was just lucky.

Gyroscopic forces are among the many considerations that have to be addressed in the design of an aircraft. But it is not something a pilot normally contemplates during landing and roll out. Wind direction and velocity, atmospheric pressure, and gravity are the issues foremost.

Crosswinds are the biggest hazard for ground loops--both takeoffs and landings. Gusting crosswinds are the worst.

Motorcycle riders are simply doing the same as pilots--using all of the controls at their disposal to keep their vehicle pointed in the right direction while not losing the the battle with gravity. If the rider presented with a road hazard or the pilot with a wind gust has to think about how to correct the situation he is toast.

The reaction needs to be as close to instinctive and to instantaneous as possible. And the way to assure that happens is to practice. Do the repetitive drill until the response is wired in. It may not guarantee you make it through a danger; but it sure does increase your odds of doing so by a whole lot.

That would be the last time you would be contemplating any physics. Your muscle memory and wits, experience, and seat of pants, eyes, everything that makes you, you, comes into play. An airplane designed right means you don't have to worry or think about the theory, you just have to fly the plane. The same thing applies to motorcycles, but we pilots discussed with our instructors all the theory, it's much more involved getting a license these days than it was even 10 years ago. The book gets bigger and fatter.

I take every time I flew, and every time I ride as practicing. I never get complacent about the experience. My eyes are open and my ears are click. I love riding, it's exhilarating, but I can't say I find it relaxing. Too many cars and trucks around here for that. Even when I go into the upper country, it comes deer jumping out into the road, cars or pick ups pulling onto the main road, and not even looking. I find the relaxation after the ride, sometimes it's like "Wow, I made it without getting hit or crashing". It could be that this part of the country is just not conducive to long sit back and worry about nothing rides.

I was landing a Piper 182 at Danbury Airport (DXR) and the stall speed was 67 mph (air speed), there was an Aeronca (which I did the annual on!) in front of me that slowed from around 70 mph to down to about 40 mph, he went off the runway centerline about 100 feet, and was on my left wing tip, my stall speed indicators started buzzing, I declared an emergency, as he started banking right into me, I had to gave it full throttle take in 2 notches of flaps, and climb, he ended up behind me. I then left the airport and came back in. The Tower cleared me to land. They also informed me that the pilot who almost caused the air to air accident was called to the Tower.

This guy also owned a massive Cessna with huge floats. He could land that on a dime, but he could not get his Aeronca landings right. He was ordered to take a 20 hr. type certification with an instructor before he could legally fly the plane again. When he found out it was me, the guy who did the annuals on his aircraft (under the tutelage of the A.I., A&P and also owner of Curtiss Aero), he filed a complaint to the owner of the FBO. Within 2 weeks, his aircraft were both gone. The owner and I were good friends, he had a waiting list of 3 years worth of aircraft that wanted those spots. He saw everything that happened and was not happy this guy tried to pressure him, so he kicked him out with both his planes, not a day went by with those spots empty.

Much respect that you having all that experience with Tail draggers and flying in general . It's opens up more places to you. The wildest thing I ever flew was a Mooney 235.

[Baatfam]

this site has an excellent history of weeding out the bloviating BS, eventually.
patience grasshopper

My patience is wearing pretty thin.....

[1978GS750E]

My patience is wearing pretty thin.....

Agreed, keep the faith grasshopper!

[JMHJ]

How'd we get so far into flying? Not to get too picky or anything, and I haven't done it in nearly 20 years, but I think I'm going around before I'm nearly on top of the guy cleared to land ahead of me. Aviatin' before Communicatin' too. Just saying. I'm sure I made some mistakes in my short "career" at that.

Centripetal turns (the plane), centrifugal pushes you into the seat. Straight down into it. At twice the force of gravity in a level 60-degree banked turn. At WAY more than that for the nearly 90-degree banked level turns you see the fighters doing. To get even further out, ever see the video of Bob Hoover pouring himself a glass of tea while doing a barrel roll? Illustrates the forces in play.

Similar stuff happening on bikes and in boats (not the barrel rolls, lol), that are turning.

[Suzukian]

Cetrifugal force causes the torque which pushes the bike up, Centripital force pushes you into the seat. There's no bloviating. When a Moderator (dpep) gives a very clearly written post, I think it's a bit disrespectful to say he is "Bloviating". The issues are related.

You don't have to read these posts.

I respect dpep having the massive experience, and spot on knowledge he has shared. I appreciate his common sense advice too. This isn't stuff you think about when you riding or flying, but your sitting in whatever you sit in, there's nothing wrong with educating yourself as to the physics in play that allow you to enjoy what you are doing,and experiencing.

I agree about the weeding out that needs to be done, but it's probably different type of weeding than what you are thinking.

[trent]

There's no bloviating. When a Moderator dpep gives a very clearly written post, I think it's a bit disrespectful to say he is "Bloviating".

Purdy sure no one was meaning dped

[ptegsotic]

Purdy sure no one was meaning dped

and they 'run' a forum

[Suzukian]

Purdy sure no one was meaning dped

I don't know who "Purdy" is, and don't know what that sentence means. It's not constructed very well.

and they 'run' a forum

and "Who is "they" that "run" a forum.

I honestly do not know what these sentence fragments mean, who they are directed towards, and why they are directed towards anyone? I was done posting on the issue, but when dpep posted a very interesting post, it deserved an answer and acknowledgement, to his vast experience, his conclusions, and the post in general. If he posted in the thread, and a member posts "my patience is wearing thin", who cares, just don't read the thread. Common sense would tell you this. There are lots of threads, most actually, I don't post in. I don't see any problem other than a few people trying to stifle other people. Stifling people's views and opinions won't work, just stop reading the thread, or black list the member that you despise.

[trent]

I don't know who "Purdy" is, and don't know what that sentence means. It's not constructed very well.

Sorry I don't construct sentences well...at all!

Bloviating,

When first mentioned, Bloviating and beating a dead horse...I took as a poke on a long winded ,repetitive never ending storyline .

And I may be mistaken, but thought that was posted before dpeds post, so I personally didn't see it as being disrespectful toward dped.

As far as the other quote ,ya quoted...well ill leave that to someine else.

[Suzukian]

I think the thread has run it's course. I think that the moderator posting in the thread, and his comments summing it up has said it all. Knowledge is a good thing to share, but nobody is forced to read a thread they aren't interested in. It does not obfuscate any other thread. If you don't like a thread, don't read it. It's that simple. If you view a topic as "beating a dead horse', don't participate in it. Let those who wish to discuss these things discuss them. there's no need for putting anybody down with sarcastic, untoward remarks. It's just pain rude. No one is going to run me out of this forum. Put me on your ignore list, or just don't read what I post. I will have my say, and I can do so without insulting anybody, throwing insults is something that I can do very well, but why bother?

I bare no grudges either. Life is way to short for that.

[Baatfam]

I think the thread has run it's course. I think that the moderator posting in the thread, and his comments summing it up has said it all. Knowledge is a good thing to share, but nobody is forced to read a thread they aren't interested in. It does not obfuscate any other thread. If you don't like a thread, don't read it. It's that simple. If you view a topic as "beating a dead horse', don't participate in it. Let those who wish to discuss these things discuss them. there's no need for putting anybody down with sarcastic, untoward remarks. It's just pain rude. No one is going to run me out of this forum. Put me on your ignore list, or just don't read what I post. I will have my say, and I can do so without insulting anybody, throwing insults is something that I can do very well, but why bother?

I bare no grudges either. Life is way to short for that.

If life is so short, shouldn't we avoid writing several verbose sentences, when a few concise ones will do?

[trent]

I think the thread has run it's course. I think that the moderator posting in the thread, and his comments summing it up has said it all. Knowledge is a good thing to share, but nobody is forced to read a thread they aren't interested in. It does not obfuscate any other thread. If you don't like a thread, don't read it. It's that simple. If you view a topic as "beating a dead horse', don't participate in it. Let those who wish to discuss these things discuss them. there's no need for putting anybody down with sarcastic, untoward remarks. It's just pain rude. No one is going to run me out of this forum. Put me on your ignore list, or just don't read what I post. I will have my say, and I can do so without insulting anybody, throwing insults is something that I can do very well, but why bother?

I bare no grudges either. Life is way to short for that.

It doesn't matter to me if it goes on forever...lol

And this thread hasn't went horribly bad.

It's all good suzukian you just keep on doing what ya do.